Breaking the Silence: Men’s Mental Health, Fatherhood, and Redefining Strength with Justin Carotti

Written By The Ghost Co.

Episode 12 with Justin Carotti

What happens when vulnerability meets high performance? In this episode of No Permission Necessary, we sit down with Justin Carotti, licensed psychotherapist, mental performance coach, and founder of Valiance Counseling and Coaching for a raw conversation about men’s mental health, identity, and resilience.

Justin shares how becoming a dad reshaped his perspective on balance, friendship, and the unspoken pressures men carry. We explore the epidemic of loneliness, the stigma around vulnerability, and why words like “courage” resonate more deeply than “weakness” when talking to men.

From the challenges young athletes face to the role of mentorship, family dynamics, and redefining what it means to lead with character, this episode is a powerful reminder that growth isn’t about having all the answers, it’s about showing up with honesty and heart.

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  • Jill Griffin 0:00

    And if we get any, like, bloopers or anything, and then we'll kind of start with your bio and start recording. So you were

    Justin Carotti 0:07

    saying, okay, yeah, here's your bio. Yo.

    Jill Griffin 0:10

    You are a brace. So our husbands have refused even be the first males on our show.

    Speaker 1 0:16

    So yeah, they're probably scared for

    Justin Carotti 0:18

    you to set a good precedent for them. Gotta get them on. Yeah, let's let's go, if that's warranted, but I'm happy to be here.

    Molly Bierman 0:27

    We are happy you're here. How is your sleep? Let's do a sleep check. How's your sleep? Is a newborn baby?

    Justin Carotti 0:34

    Yeah, I was gonna say I have a newborn baby. Her name is Sloan. She is literally eight weeks this past Saturday, two months shots go down today. So we're in a we're in a good spot. I would say, honestly, you guys are catching me at a really good time. She broke a record last night. Last night was a PR. We have 8pm to 530 maybe even six o'clock. Whoa, whoa. Really, really, really, really, strong. Feel good. I take, I take all the credit in the world. It has everything to do with me. Oh, wow, yeah, she's, no, she literally is doing great. That was two nights in a row of progression, which is great. So she did 430 the night before, and six o'clock, 630 today. So rocking and rolling feel good.

    Jill Griffin 1:24

    I mean, I just want you to know that you sound like you got much more sleep than both Molly and I. So that will probably be reflected in this, in this show.

    Justin Carotti 1:33

    I tried. I tried. I told Sloan last night, I said, Look, I got a big podcast. I got to set the precedence, the first mail audit. You know, I gotta get on there. She's like, No problem, Dad, I got you. So she gave me a nice she came through.

    Speaker 1 1:45

    She's a girl's girl. Let's go.

    Jill Griffin 1:49

    Yeah, we love that. I gotta turn off my air conditioning.

    Speaker 1 1:54

    Do your thing. Otherwise it'll sound like a Jets taking off in the middle of the podcast.

    Justin Carotti 1:58

    Well, she just came here, I guess, cup of coffee I've ever seen. So she's probably giving fuel pretty soon she

    Molly Bierman 2:04

    is, yeah, true. And I just, I just DoorDash Starbucks, so we may have to pause for me to pick that up off my stop.

    Jill Griffin 2:11

    I'm so glad that your morning is going well and you got a fresh night of sleep. I've actually been up since 410 um, solo parenting, with two children that had to get on the bus this morning. Fit a workout in still. Oh, yeah, no lunches. There you go. Not ready, out the door and on time enough to stop at Starbucks.

    Justin Carotti 2:30

    Looked a little bit bigger when you first picked it up, but that's, I feel like it's a medium now.

    Jill Griffin 2:34

    It's a venti, yeah, it's a venti, okay, okay, when you tilt it the right way,

    Justin Carotti 2:38

    you got to work it on. That's good.

    Jill Griffin 2:42

    So we're thriving. It's Friday. Hell yeah,

    Molly Bierman 2:45

    it's Friday. Thank God. I mean, what is Friday when you have a kid and you don't have childcare? So Monday,

    Jill Griffin 2:52

    oh, tomorrow's a nightmare. Tomorrow's a sports pictures practice. I mean, tomorrow's yeah nightmare.

    Justin Carotti 3:01

    How many, how many kids you have? Jill, 210,

    Jill Griffin 3:05

    and seven, and what sports are they playing? Yeah, uh. Beckett, my son plays flag football, and I am also the coach of the team of the flag football team,

    Speaker 2 3:17

    nice, um, is it?

    Jill Griffin 3:21

    I mean, it's going, okay, um, we'll see on Sunday for our first game, and then my daughter plays softball. Okay? My son also plays lacrosse. My son also plays lacrosse in the fall. So this is what, this is your first Sloan is your

    Justin Carotti 3:37

    first child. She's, she's the first one. We're not, we're early. Early days here.

    Jill Griffin 3:43

    Yeah, so Molly doesn't know this yet either, but once they become, you know, five, six, they start doing the sports. Basically, your life will revolve around what sports season it is and the practices and their schedule, their schedule is no longer yours. Your free time is no longer yours, because the alternative to that is to having children who aren't involved in team sports or aren't they're just what are they going to do with that time after school until bedtime? That equally will drive you insane of trying to fill that time without an organized sport situation. I hear you. It's a lose.

    Justin Carotti 4:24

    Lose. From the people that I know who are in a similar position to you, they've all reported the same thing, like the weekends are gone. And it gets more complicated as the sports they become a little bit more intense or a little bit more competitive. Now you have to be in different states. You have to, like, split different places to be. They can have overlap. So in a way, I feel like you're actually on the beginning of the beginning, because as they get better, though, they'll have, like more things to attend, or more competitive environments to be at, and you have to figure out where to go.

    Jill Griffin 4:57

    Yeah, listening. I've also. Been listening, though, to a lot of research around the specialization for these kids so young, Oh, for sure, is not good. It's not good for their muscles. When you're using the same muscle groups over and over, they kids really need, I mean, that's what injuries you have some of these kids who play travel baseball earlier getting Tommy John surgery.

    Justin Carotti 5:19

    Yeah, yeah, because

    Jill Griffin 5:21

    that's insane.

    Molly Bierman 5:24

    What I think that's kind of your specialty, Justin, right? Talking about, like, young athletes and mentoring men with mental health challenges, yeah.

    Justin Carotti 5:35

    Area of expertise that I've carved out, and I think our practice overall has carved out. I mean, what you just referenced is something that I've experienced within the last four months. I did a I have coached at the high school level soccer, but I've also interfaced with a lot of high school athletes, in particular baseball, hockey and lacrosse. These sort of like pretty intense, highly competitive, pretty well sought after programs for at the collegiate level. And these kids, I think, are inundated with pressure to perform all year round, be in the gym, continue to be playing at the highest level. And they interpret, to your point, Jill, that if they were to play a different sport. It is detracting them from continually growing in the sport that they want to pursue at a high level, at high school level, or, you know, potentially at the collegiate level or beyond. And I that's just flawed logic, as you're pointing out. You know, I think especially as the body is developing, you want to have the ability to be athletic, literally, in all environments. And the way to do that is to challenge your muscle system across different ways. So it is an uphill battle, though, trying to work with the athletes, and probably more so the parents in working through that logic, because I can understand the other side too. Like, wait, you're asking my son who plays baseball to not play baseball. That doesn't seem to make sense. So there's a little bit of tact that has to be applied when we're when we're talking to parents about this, because I get it. It's a little bit of a sensitive subject, particular, if the guy is good or projected to be good.

    Jill Griffin 7:22

    But Tom Brady didn't play organized football until he was a freshman in high school. Okay, so here we go. That's correct.

    Justin Carotti 7:30

    Countless examples, countless

    Speaker 1 7:32

    Can you tell I can? Yeah, tell that Jill's a Patriots

    Justin Carotti 7:34

    fan. Yeah, same. Let's go.

    Speaker 1 7:37

    Oh, okay, thank you. All right, we have we

    Jill Griffin 7:40

    before we do Justin's introduction, formal introduction. Here, we have a shot here at the wild card. We have a shot of 10 plus wins this year. It is possible,

    Justin Carotti 7:50

    yes, yes. To be honest with you, I was actually just talking about this with my wife yesterday. I didn't really watch football last year. We were god awful.

    Jill Griffin 8:01

    So embarrassing. The coaching

    Justin Carotti 8:04

    sucked. I would like to be able to tune into a couple games and like, at least feel as though we can win. So I'll take your 10 wins for sure.

    Jill Griffin 8:12

    I think, I think we could get, we have a coaching staff this year that's, I think, gonna make the difference

    Justin Carotti 8:19

    where actually, where are you? Where do you live? Jill, I don't, I don't actually know where you guys are coming to from. Where are we?

    Jill Griffin 8:25

    I live in Durham, Connecticut. Oh, nice. So, my practice is in Wallingford. Got it? Got it? Molly's down in Maryland. Yep, cool.

    Justin Carotti 8:33

    I'm like, an hour DC. I can walk to St Joe's High School from my house. Oh, nice.

    Jill Griffin 8:40

    All right. Any ready, any final thoughts or questions before we get started? Patriots fan done. Yeah, we love it already. You're already winning.

    Molly Bierman 8:52

    We're gonna run this till about 1030 I think, yeah, give or take, that's fine. Does that work? Does it back? You have a hard hand. We're doing back to back episodes today, because we are gonna just, we need another Yeah, we need another banked episode, but it's not an interview. The second one will just be us, so it'll be a total train wreck.

    Jill Griffin 9:13

    Yeah, we're gonna use all our brain energy for this,

    Speaker 1 9:17

    so it'll be just a shit show.

    Jill Griffin 9:23

    I gotta open my window. I'm sweating.

    Molly Bierman 9:28

    Okay, and we just surpassed 1000 downloads on our podcast. Justin so good times be coming on.

    Justin Carotti 9:37

    Yes, congratulations. About like, the origin story. How long you guys been doing this? What have you found in terms of audience? Like, maybe give me a little bit of background. I listened to one episode, Joe, yeah. So with you guys, which episode,

    Jill Griffin 9:53

    which episode? It

    Justin Carotti 9:54

    was the Molly interview. So you you pretty much. There you go. Thank you. Um.

    Molly Bierman 10:00

    Um, so the inception of the podcast, I mean, I gave you a little bit of I'll give Jill. Jill can give her perception, too. But the inception of the podcast was born out of years ago. Jill and I both working in agency, and Jill making a drastic, pretty much career change. And the challenges with growing a business, stabilizing a business, and being a mom, which didn't come for me until a little bit after Jill, and being a wife, being a friend, being a mentor, being a leader, etc, and how all of those areas can really coincide with one another. A couple weeks ago, we did a podcast episode with my mentor, Carrie Honeycutt, who's actually was used to be based kind of out in the Trumbull area. And she talked about she used the word instead of balance equilibrium and how everything is really working in tandem with one another. And you don't really have to be dedicating so much energy to one area to just like balance it and kind of grit your teeth and squeeze your fists. And so the inception was really to share how we do it, how we do it pretty well, some days messy, others. And then also bring on entrepreneurs, individuals that we respect are tied to the mission and vision of bettering themselves in a way that is challenging, but also taking risk. I don't know. I feel like that kind of sums it up.

    Jill Griffin 11:44

    Joe, yeah, we joked for years we should have a podcast, because during covid, we would spend 45 minutes, an hour on the phone, troubleshooting things. And I'm like, people would probably benefit from listening to us, just like, work through these things, right? And we joked about it. I think our husbands always knew, like, oh shit, if they're saying this, it's gonna be a thing. So then when we started putting it in motion, really in March, right? Is when we started just doing the background, yeah, we started doing really, like putting things in motion, which we are very new to there's a lot to learn in the podcast world. So Anthony hopped on. He's part of our, our team with palm tree podcast company. We have some social media help. So like, we have a team of people that's helping us, but it's, it's been a ride learning.

    Justin Carotti 12:37

    Well, that's tremendous. In March is when you started, and you're, you started, and you're you are where you are today. How many episodes have you guys done?

    Molly Bierman 12:44

    I think we launched our first episode in July, and

    Jill Griffin 12:48

    yeah, we have 14.

    Molly Bierman 12:50

    Yeah, roughly. So we banked a bunch of episodes kind of leading up to it. So that way we were ready to roll out two episodes at launch and then subsequently one a week.

    Justin Carotti 13:00

    Super smart. I love it. Well, also the, what you say, 1000 subscribers on one episode, or the whole thing,

    Speaker 1 13:07

    1000 downloads on the whole podcast, yeah, yeah.

    Justin Carotti 13:11

    Well, good for you guys. I'm impressed. I think, in a world where I've thought about this before, in a world where it feels hyper saturated, there's still, like, I just think that's wrong. I think there's a lot of room for personal brand and there's a lot of room for, I think, specifically, female led voices in positions of entrepreneurship, in positions of like, you said, like balancing, or, let's maybe use different language, but in the equilibrium of family life and of work life. And I just, I give you guys a lot of credit for taking a stab at, I know Molly, you spoke to that specifically in your episode around, like, the risk that it took to take, to take this on. So I'm just impressed. I think it's cool. I'm glad to be here, happy to hopefully provide some value to the conversation.

    Molly Bierman 13:59

    Yeah, let's do it. Let's get into it. All right, Anthony, you can probably cut a little bit of the commentary from prior to now, and I'm going to roll out with Justin's bio. Welcome to no permission necessary. I am pleased and excited to have Justin. I want to ask you first, is it karate? I want to make sure I pronounce it correctly.

    Justin Carotti 14:27

    That would be a blooper. Yes, karate, karate,

    Speaker 1 14:30

    fantastic.

    Justin Carotti 14:32

    Exactly like the martial arts, exactly like it. Why not

    Jill Griffin 14:37

    when I said it the first time I was like karate, like martial arts, got it?

    Molly Bierman 14:41

    You got it? Okay, okay, okay. All right. All right, Anthony, take two. Welcome back to no permission necessary. I am thrilled to have our guest today be our first male in the hot seat, which I feel like it's going to be really cool. Right for our listeners, but I'll give you a little bit of background here. Justin karate is a licensed psychotherapist, mental performance coach and founder of valiant counseling and coaching with over a decade of experience working with men navigating anxiety, identity and high performance as an adjunct faculty member at both Fairfield University and the University of Connecticut, Justin has educated 100 plus graduate level students in clinical practice and served as a clinical supervisor for over a dozen clinicians over the past 10 years, he has led operations as CEO of a seven figure private mental health agency, and he has founded his own private group practice. He blends clinical excellence with lived experience as a competitive athlete, coach and mentor to young men and professionals alike. Welcome.

    Justin Carotti 15:47

    Justin, glad to be here. Yes, let's hopefully it's not that hot of a hot seat. We'll see

    Speaker 1 15:57

    to be to be determined. Jillian, kick it off?

    Jill Griffin 16:03

    Yeah, I'm just, I'm so happy to have you here. I guess I want to kick it off with, why is this topic of men's mental health important to you and to us as women, as you know, to society at large? Like, why is that? Because I think it's a thing that is taking center stage a lot more.

    Justin Carotti 16:25

    Yeah, well, you could start by asking, like, why is it taking center stage? And I think it's largely due to the fact that we are in relationship with one another, men and women, no matter, like, however you slice it. So if we see that women are struggling, we're going to be paying attention to that. And if we see that men are struggling, we're going to be paying attention to that. And I just think we're at a period in our Zeitgeist, the time where we are culturally speaking, specifically the United States, but probably more broadly internationally as well, where I think men, as you reference, just like broadly, are struggling, and we could talk about why they're struggling, or how come they're struggling, but I think the reason to really focus in on men's mental health is because we see a giant cohort of folks really struggling across a variety of different domains, socially, relationally, from a substance use perspective, from a risk perspective, less higher education, less romantic partnership, less child bearing, like there's, there's a lot of, I think, risk factors, quote, unquote, and it seems to be a growing phenomenon, specifically with men. So Why should women care about that? Because I think women are in relationship with men, and men are in relationship with women in all ways. Like, welcome to the world, right? It doesn't necessarily mean romantic. It just means like, wherever you are, you're in relationship with one another, macro, micro, or even at the middle level. So if I think your audience probably could resonate with they probably know a male who's struggling and like, therein lies why we should care about it.

    Jill Griffin 18:08

    Do you think that now men are struggling more, or it's just that? I don't know. I there's a little bit, there's more advocacy around speaking up and getting help. And, you know, the services are different than, say, 70 years ago,

    Justin Carotti 18:29

    yeah, the current environment, and you probably have experienced this in your work as well. I think one of the amazing things about this upcoming generation, prior generation, even I'm a millennial, even my generation is, I think they're far more vocal and understanding and insightful about a pursuit towards authenticity and vulnerability and an understanding that mental health is a real thing. So for any qualms that people have around generational differences, one of the amazing things, in my opinion, of these, these past three generations, let's say, specifically young adults, is that they're very open to this kind of work. So I think it's probably true what you're saying, that more the more vocal these kinds of conversations end up being, the more we're able to attend to them. And how come they're more vocal? Well, because people are more open to expressing this stuff. So if you dial it back, 7080, years ago, it's it's unequivocally people were struggling with mental health. It just wasn't as open to be talked about. Yeah, I do think it's worth also defining, like what struggle means, because I think everyone's definition may be different there. And I think there are specific domains that are drawing some attention when you have an epidemic of loneliness or an epidemic of young men. Are not engaged in the workforce, or not engaged in higher education or not engaged in child rearing. You see a population decline. These kinds of things, I think draw national attention, or even international attention. I think the UK hired like a loneliness director to oversee this challenge, right? So it goes from maybe community specific challenges, you know, maybe a community here or there is really struggling, to when it hits a national level. Jonathan heights book, anxious generation like, start to see this as being, like, pretty prominent across not just local communities, but a broader sort of pattern.

    Jill Griffin 20:41

    So that's kind of my surgeon our Surgeon General. Surgeon general put out a in 2023, around the epidemic of loneliness, right? So when you say, like the UK is appointing this person, that's like overseeing, correcting this phenomenon, which, you know, I have my own thoughts about it. I think technology plays a big role. I think social media plays a big role. But you know, what have we done since that Surgeon General's warning came out? And I would probably say not a ton, right? I think it's left to us, right? Us as therapists, helpers, coaches, in our practices trying to create some community, right? Because people believe that they're in community on social media when they're kind of like, passively ingesting people's lives that, like, they know these people and they're their friends, but are they, like, do you really know what's going on with them? Because that highlight reel, that person may actually be struggling in the background, and we don't know, right, totally. Well, it's not really connection.

    Justin Carotti 21:44

    It's definitely not connection. And you're right to pinpoint at least one of the areas that I think causes some of this challenge. So, you know, obviously social media being one of them. I think it's multifaceted with anything when it's this kind of the when the impact is this immense. This it touches a lot of different communities. It's probably more than one thing. So we can kind of talk through how we maybe identify the challenges that these young people are facing. But you're, I think you're right in that it's a community based solution as well. And I think that's really what's caused the groundswell movement that Jonathan heights book has created like, I know, I live in the Fairfield County area in Connecticut, and just this year, a lot of I think it might be district wide. Fairfield public schools are moving to no phones in schools in October. So it's awesome. That's a that's an interesting move, right man, that's a community based move that's made a decision to address this particular issue social media or access to phones, for example. And you know, maybe that's not nationwide quite yet, but it's gotten to a place where we're starting to see it slightly tip over. Unfortunately, maybe that report came out in 2023 so it's taken us a long time to do that, but I do think that provides a level of hope that it's, it's not just on one therapist or on one parent or on, you know, one school to have to do these kinds of things. It can be a community level intervention.

    Molly Bierman 23:13

    Well, how do you feel like it's shown up even in your life? Right? So as a millennial, as someone who works in the mental health space, but as a man, what has that looked like for you? For friends, for colleagues? How much do you openly speak about your own day to day challenges, or your friends day to day challenges like I feel a lot of the time we're in a space with a with a plethora of helpers. Yeah, and I think we're really good at sharing how to help others. But what about you? And how does that affect you? I mean, new dad, all so many changes going on, career shifts, you know,

    Justin Carotti 24:01

    yeah. Well, that's a really important question. Phase of life matters. So the phase of life that I'm in right now as a new dad is a I think, for me, maybe for men generally, or dads generally, it is a pretty isolating experience, because you're paying attention to the most important thing in front of you. So I have this like baby, and I have, you know my wife, in this case, who I want to support, my wife and her efforts to take care of our child, and I obviously need to be there for our child as well. And it's very difficult for me to find time to prioritize my friendships the way that I was able to in the phase of life prior to having a kid. And so when I was in my 20s. 90s, I found, at least in my experience, I don't want to speak like too broadly here, but in my experience, I was able to have a lot of social connection, a lot of deep connection in sort of like, let's say, a handful of friends, and then a lot of extraneous, great connection with a bunch of different people in my life. And so that was really rewarding, really fulfilling. It didn't feel very isolating. I did not experience a tremendous amount of loneliness. If I had challenges, I felt as though I was able to juxtapose those challenges with my peer group and sort of see that I was actually not as far behind as I thought I was, or we kind of kind of like commiserate over the challenges of being in your 20s. And then I think it just becomes, at least in my experience, increasingly difficult to maintain those friendships. In this new phase of life where, back end of your 20s, you're prioritizing your career, at least again, in my case, you're starting to really focus in on, maybe your nuclear family, what it is that you want out of that phase of life, that specific role change towards fatherhood, let's say, and to reach out and to grab a community of men and commiserate is just more difficult. Now, I do think it's worth, and this is something I work on a lot with my clients. I do think it's worth auditing where, where you are in the roles in your life. So, you know, I'm a husband, I'm a father, I'm a brother, I'm a son, I'm a grandson, I'm an employee, I'm a boss. And every one of those roles, I think, gets paid attention to in different ways, and it's important for me, at least, to occasionally audit how it is that I'm showing up in those roles that is both true to myself, what I value, and areas that need attending to. So right now, I'm probably over indexed in my role as husband, father and business owner, and I'm way under indexed in my role as brother, friend. I'm pretty good as a son right now, definitely not as good as a grandson, right? And so what can I do, behaviorally, tactically, actionably, to maybe live more in line with those kinds of roles, the things I value within those roles that's incumbent upon me to do, and that's, that's really the way I've done it. Molly, is I've just audited. Where am I missing and what can I do to change it?

    Jill Griffin 27:32

    What about when you're having a moment of fear, maybe feeling less than feeling like I don't know what I'm doing, which is very common, I think, and when you're a new parent or or a new business owner or doing anything new for that matter, but like, who's your what's happening and who's your go to? Because, you know, I think men and women definitely communicate differently and rely on their supports a little bit differently. Yeah.

    Justin Carotti 28:05

    So there's, there's both the relational aspect, which I think you're referencing Jill, and then there's also the behavioral aspect, which to me, just the way I've worked, has been what's kept me stable. So there are, I am incredibly regimented and disciplined in my behaviors when I get anxious. So if I start getting anxious or worried about a new opportunity, you guys referenced a couple of things that I've done historically with my teaching experience. Those each time I started a new class, that's a big deal for me. You know, I want to make sure I'm teaching the graduate students, in this case, that they're going to get the highest level of academic competence that I can provide. And so I need to do what I can do to control, what I can control prior to an experience which I know is anxiety provoking. So I need to do the kinds of things that I can do to prepare. And this is where my regimen in the gym, in my body, taking care of my body, taking care of my sleep, really becomes a priority. Now I'm getting to the relational question that you're you're probably leading to, but really, for me, it's, it really is taking care of the behavioral side of things. First, on the relational side, I've been the benefit. I've had the benefit of having one on one mentors that I can trust and that I can bounce ideas off of. So I don't do best in a community forum like I'm not a very extroverted person. I'm not the kind of guy who's, you know, going to be out just talking about what's going on for me in like, a social setting. I'm much more grab a coffee, hang out with a buddy, or hang out with a friend or hang out with a mentor and kind of chat about the difficulties that I might be experiencing or the anxieties I might have. So one of I mean, this is hopefully not a cop out here, but one of my primary mentors is my dad. I feel very comfortable going to him, working through challenges, talking through challenges in a way where I know I'll be. Listen to without judgment, and also a sense of direction. He obviously knows me, so he can, he can provide some pretty candid feedback if he wanted to. And then I have peer groups, honestly, a couple of my peers who I've worked alongside, much like yourselves. You guys have worked together. They've known me in those kinds of ways, and so I've felt comfortable going to them over a cup of coffee and kind of talking about the things that I aspire to be, or the jam ups that I might be experiencing. A lot of my mental health, or whatever it's worth, a lot of my mental health challenges are far more problems of the future, not problems of the past. So I'm more ambitious and I'm more thinking about where I want things to go, and so I get jammed up in feeling maybe, let's say, not good enough, or too perfectionistic, or I have a tendency of over engineering things, so I need to troubleshoot how I'm going to go about just like not doing that and being, let's say, relatable, dogmatic or being more thoughtful or slower these kinds of things.

    Molly Bierman 31:11

    Yeah. Do you? Do you feel like I have two follow up questions. One is, do you feel like you your go tos and your mentors have shifted, or your need has shifted now that your dad, I guess I'll start there,

    Justin Carotti 31:27

    yes. Kick the following, yes, yes. So when I was in my 20s, I needed mentors who could, just like, stabilize me a little bit. And I had those mentors I feel extraordinarily fortunate to have had. I honestly was just thinking about this last week because I was thinking like, Wouldn't it be cool if I interviewed my mentors? Because I've had mentors, male mentors, since I was in high school, who I can name names. They're probably 12345, of them who, at each juncture, like high school, then my first job out of college, then my second job, and now where I'm at now, there's been male mentors along the way, so those mentors are not really present in my life anymore. You know, my high school mentor is not in my life at all. But that's fine. They there. I have this vision of me, almost like a like a character in a movie, and I just need guides along these kind of mini like, sort of side quests. So high school Justin needed that mentor. And, you know, first job out of college needed that mentor. And they they drop off, but they were there to guide me at times that were important as a dad. I mean, look, I mean eight weeks plus into being a dad, like, I don't really have great mentors. I mean, I have, I have my friends who are in a similar position, but I got to be honest with you guys, like, I think we're all kind of just fighting through it a little bit. So what I am for your life right now, what I try to take advantage of is just try to be like, really focused on how amazing and blessed and awesome it is to have friends who all have kids under two, and just be like around them. We're not like, really doing anything actively to support one another. Like, Hey, Justin, how are you feeling? How are you doing? Like, you know, shoulder to cry on kind of thing. But we're all, you're just

    Speaker 1 33:28

    ordering takeout in one house and just hoping that nobody has a diaper. That's what.

    Justin Carotti 33:35

    We're just sharing the experience, right? And that's, yeah, I don't know, maybe a lot of times. I think so. I think so, yeah, yeah,

    Molly Bierman 33:45

    you brought up a really good point about your dad, which I think is a really, you know, really sweet, Honest dialog about, you know, how men do Lean into their dads. And I think what I wonder about, especially with your clients, and in a movement where there is so much content being thrown at young adults or adolescents around analyzing How their parents raised them and how they should basically excommunicate from their family if they didn't behave in a certain way. I would love to hear more about how you work with clients. Help them understand the relationship they have with their parents and with young adult men, specifically, if they do have a rupture with their fathers, how they can maybe reinvent that relationship? Because I feel like that's a really big we see it in women, with their mom, with moms, right? We, I think we see that lens a little bit more than we see the it from the men's lens. So I'd love to hear a little bit about

    Jill Griffin 34:59

    that. Well. Even, how about all the kids that don't have fathers at all? I mean, I think that's a big statistic, too. So I don't know how much you're seeing of that, but you know, there's a generation of young men who are growing up with in a single mother home or without a father, and that is challenging, too,

    Justin Carotti 35:18

    very challenging. And a lot of the so this, let's just sort of define the population that I tend to do. There's a difference between what Justin does specifically in the work and what Valiants does broadly. But just to kind of might be helpful, just to sort of define what my day job looks like. So it's a pretty narrow view on clientele that I think I don't want to get misconstrued as it's represent representing all male issues. I don't want to speak for all men in my specific work, which is Fairfield County, Connecticut, which is a higher socioeconomic status type individual who's seeking out treatment, who tends to be able to pay private pay, non insurance, who tends to be relatively homogeneous in terms of their race and identity, those specific men that I tend to work with end up pretty much having, for all intents and purposes, absentee dads, due to the fact that they're often working a ton. So we see a lot of fathers who are available as sort of the patriarch or the sort of the stereotypical provider, but who are just straight up not available, emotionally, emotionally absent, correct, correct, correct,

    Jill Griffin 36:30

    which, that's a lot of the work I do when with EMDR, with attachment trauma, and I say to clients, sometimes you know you may have had a good childhood In terms of you went on vacation twice a year, and you had good parents, and you have like, these nice family photos, but when we get deeper under the surface where your emotions tended to correct that did a lot of now,

    Molly Bierman 36:53

    that feels threatening, because a lot of people will push back on that and Say, I had a great life, right?

    Jill Griffin 36:59

    Like Bill, I actually disagree. I think it is actually very freeing and almost like the puzzle pieces click when people are like, Oh, that's why I behave this way in relationships, or that's why I behave this way, you know, or think less of myself, or don't know how to identify any type of emotion that I have and I binge eat or I drink more, or I do all these like behaviors, right? Because no one taught me how to have emotions properly,

    Justin Carotti 37:31

    yeah, and attend to them in a two way, parenting dynamic. So you know, the burden of responsibility was placed on a single mother, if you're a son or probably a daughter too, of in a divorced family, the burden of responsibility for that mother is tremendous, because she has to be both the sensitive and attend maternal, yeah, exactly, and then also the Enforcer. So that becomes incredibly challenging, and it just makes it, quote, unquote, let's say easier, if you have two parents who can attend to two different types of emotional sensitivity at the time when it's occurring. So I agree with you, Joe. I It's interesting, though, because from an EMDR perspective, you have clients who are ready to do the work in theory, right? There's a, there's a there's a level of depth to EMDR that, you know, it's, you know, hyper focused on the, on the, on the trauma side of things. And you're right to point out, I think this is actually an interesting conversation around attachment based trauma as well. I'll just tell you, from my experience, you mentioned that men and women communicate differently, like, let's just say broadly, that my clientele don't really know what emotions are. So, so we are talking, we're talking about, like, fundamental baseline element, like the feelings wheel, yeah, literally starting from scratch. So, and what that means, and this, I think, ties into some of what you guys are asking is, like, Okay, what's the impact of, you know, let's say absentee fathers, or not having a father in the mix. And how do I fill that role in my particular work? Well, clearly, there's an infinity just based on gender, right? Like a mom will see my picture and say, well, this, you know, young Johnny could probably do well with this guy and that I they I could be a terrible clinician. I'm just a male, right? So they could just pinpoint me based on gender. When I work with these guys, it's it's trying to model a different way of showing up that isn't so much about a performance or achievement or results, which I think tends to be, in large part, the conversation that they're getting. It's like, Hey, Johnny, you should be doing more. You have so much potential. And that, I think, is an inherently disempowering message, which sort of misses that Johnny might be trying really hard, or Johnny might be wanting to go in a different direction. And what's already being sort of proposed to him as his future. And so it's, it's just a different way strategically that I try to engage with these guys, far more relation, relational, far more open, far more respectful to the fact that they probably have a lot of this stuff figured out, or at least, are thinking about it. You know, a lot of the young men that I'm working with are way more thoughtful than I think people give them credit, way more insightful. Or their behaviors actually make sense. You know, why would why would he be avoidant? Or why would he be unmotivated? Well, maybe he just doesn't want to fail. Maybe he's actually dealing with more shame than I think anyone's actually giving him credit, and like, we just look past that as an issue, like, oh well, if he's ashamed, like, we just got to get over like it doesn't even cross our radar that someone like a kid who is oppositional, that oppositionality might just be actually a cope rather than an innate trait that he's always had. And there's a level of empathy there. So, you know, borrowing from what I think I've learned from my dad and from my mom too, is trying to show up for everyone, male, female, boy, girl doesn't matter, with a level of empathy just to try to seek to understand their reality.

    Jill Griffin 41:23

    I think what you're talking about too around that shame, and to kind of reference Brene Brown's work, right? The opposite of shame really is that vulnerability. And so there seems to be a cost that men and young and younger boys, I think, have towards Well, if I if I cry, then I'm seeing I'm viewed in a certain way. I'm seen as weak, right? There's this connection made about vulnerability and being weak that I think is amplified in this the male space. And that's also generational, right? We've heard, I've heard even dads and our communities, right, that say, Don't cry, don't don't act like a girl, right? But what do you feel like the cost is personally, professionally, for men who suppress their vulnerability,

    Justin Carotti 42:22

    so I mean, it's kind of like, it's a good question, because there's, there's definitely a lot of complexity there the there's a lot of cost. I think it's interesting. Just, I've talked a lot about vulnerability, and I know Brene Brown stuff that you're referencing. I think if we were to ask, at least in my experience, if I were to ask my clients to be vulnerable, it ain't gonna work. So they're not, they still are going to hold true, I think, to this idea that vulnerability is weakness, and even if Brene Brown gives them the most rah rah speech ever, it's not going to resonate. I think what the missing element in my experience has been is you try to tie vulnerability to what I think Brene talks about as well, which is courage. So to me, I think courage is something that resonates. Vulnerability is something that doesn't. Vulnerability inherently sort of seeks

    Jill Griffin 43:27

    for men, yes, for men or

    Justin Carotti 43:28

    Yes, yes, yes, yes. So if I were to talk about courageousness, there's a sense of purpose, there's a sense of standing to one's principles. There's a sense of ownership, there's a sense of direction, and it's perhaps one in the same. Right? We could have a discussion semantically around courageousness and vulnerability being one in the same. But I do think language matters when you're speaking with young men and when you when you approach it with this more forward, focused lens, you know the person who who charges forward with a sense of direction, even if it's anxiety ridden, and if you were to fail, it's actually an opportunity for you to become a better leader or to be more well rounded. In the future, should you face these kinds of adversities? You can see that my language is sort of positioned, that this is a more of a principled stance of who you want to become. It's character building. So I borrow like, if you were to say, like marrying Brene Brown's work with Ryan holidays, work with stoicism. Like to me, I think that kind of language can be a little bit more empowering, I guess. So that's kind of how I would go about it. What's the impact if a person doesn't lean into vulnerability or courageousness? Well, they deep down. You know, I. Right when you're not upholding your standard. So if I say to myself that I'm going to wake up today and I'm going to do certain things, like I'm going to go to the gym and I'm, you know, I'm going to eat healthy, and then I don't do that. Yeah, there are impacts to other people, but the biggest impact is to yourself, because you're letting yourself down, right? You've made a commitment to yourself, and then you don't do it when you experience adversity, and you don't allow yourself the opportunity to, like, actually fully express that adversity as being difficult. You're you're in a version of repression, right? You're just not even actually owning that that was difficult. So that's the downside of being stoic, is you kind of distance yourself from the emotional experience and be like, Oh, that's not real. I work with a lot of athletes who do this really well. They're like, Oh, that anxiety that I'm feeling like, that's not real. I'll just kind of push that to the side. It's like, wait a second, you're still a human being, right? And so the the reality is, if you don't address the fact that you experience adversity and you and you onboard that rather than resist it, you onboard that and make meaning from it. If you don't do that, you're going to be a shell of who you are, because it's you're letting yourself down, in a way, by just pushing a human emotion aside. It would be like you referenced Joe, you know, no crying on the playground kind of thing. Well, as soon as you shut down that side of the emotional experience. Now, what is that kid going to do the next time he experiences sadness, he just has to repress it and put it somewhere. Yeah, it's not like, it just disappears.

    Jill Griffin 46:27

    It's not going anywhere, correct? You're just shoving it. And, you know, I agree, I agree with what you said. And as you were talking, I'm thinking, Okay, I don't use that language necessarily, but my approach with men in my therapy practice, which just sounds like, you know, we definitely, I'm sure, have different styles, but I definitely change how I talk to some of the men in my in the therapy room with me. I mean, I work with a lot of first responders, some veterans, some we're talking like the macho, macho men, right? They're coming in, they, they want to, they, they're coming for therapy. But I also think there's this, there's this thing that they do where they want me to think, like, Yeah, I'm here, and I have this thing, but I'm actually okay, I'm good. And it's like, Dude, it doesn't seem like you're okay, you know, like, let's just call it what it is, then I think it's our responsibility as helpers and therapists. The vulnerability doesn't mean like, I want you to be exposed and vulnerable throughout the world, everywhere you go, right? There's a time and a place. But the thing is, for me to model that you can be vulnerable and these intimate in these relationships and these intimate relationships, right? And like, sometimes I, especially with a female therapist, there is this process where I'm kind of showing you how you can then bring that home to your wife, how you can then bring that into the world with, I don't know, your children, you know, how you can reflect, hey, this is how I'm feeling, and do it in a way that is appropriate is, you know, sharing that experience with another human, instead of you feeling like it's showing your weakness, right? I think vulnerability can actually be really strong and also, and this is where I change my language up. It's like, if you don't deal with this shit, it's not going anywhere. So right now, it's, it's running your life, because all your protectors have now gone away, shoving it, it comes up, it's going to come up.

    Molly Bierman 48:29

    I also think some of the challenge, and this goes back to Justin, when you and I first started working together, because Justin and I used to collaborate when I used to work in Fairfield County through his old organization, and we shared mutual clients. And I think that the bigger challenge was not necessarily helping the young adult male find his courage, we'll use that word and or vulnerability if they're feeling more comfortable in their space, but it was helping the fathers, okay, and the fathers of these young men, just a couple weeks ago, I was talking to a dad of the importance of his son, kind of sharing the fears that he has around communicating with him in terms of his vocational current position, right? Because vocational status, for the young adult male, especially in in and around the clientele that both you and I work with. Justin matters, right? There's a lot of pressure on on where you land on the totem pole there. And I this father could not grasp. He couldn't grasp. He kept going back to the job, and maybe he needs to look for a different job. And so it would be helpful, I think, for us to hear, how do you combat that when they are hearing such reinforcement in. Your office, but they're not hearing that reinforcement at home, and then they go in to try to have these conversations and dialog in their personal life, and it tends to get shut down.

    Justin Carotti 50:13

    Got it? Yeah, so let me go back to and then I'll touch on you. So I just want to give credit to you, Jill, I think you've made an excellent distinction between vulnerability in the office and vulnerability in all phases of life. So I totally agree with you that there is so much value therapeutically in modeling and offering space, and it's like a microcosm that someone could then take forward in their life. So I appreciate your your language there, because I think it's important that for the men who are listening to this, or for the women who know men who are listening to this, or should listen to this, you know, there's an opportunity for practicing, you know, as if, as if this was an environment to safely be three dimensional as a human being and do what you want with that, like, at least practice with me for an hour. And if we can take that forward, great. I think that that's really an important distinction. As far as that, you know, going to your question, am I? And I think as far as dads are concerned, and you know, how do we actually balance this, because we're up against it, right? So you got one hour with with Johnny in the room, and then you present to him this space that's safe and non judgmental and supportive and sensitive, and, you know, a healthy dose of challenge and a lot of motion motivational interviewing, which we can talk about. And then they go back home, and there's status and pressure and performance and outcomes. It's like, good luck winning that. I mean, if you, if there's 168 hours a week, you're asleep for 60 of them, and you meet with a therapist for one we're talking about 1% of your week is with a therapist. It's just, it ain't gonna really move the needle. So what we have to do, at least, what I've experienced, what I think our team does a really nice job at is bringing parents along for the ride. Here's what I would say to this generalized question of like, I think when we talk about status, or we talk about pressure or we talk about outcomes, it it's inherently, I think, a place of anxiety for the parent, because they want their kid to be successful, be happy, have what they had. You know, if you, if you're if you're used to certain things, luxuries in your life, you want your kid to be able to take advantage of those opportunities and and like, not squander the resources that they've been given. And so when you see, you know the discrepancy between what you have and what you're seeing at home with your 21 year old is, like, this has got to change. And so what you'll do is, rather than own your anxiety about that, that discrepancy, you'll just put a ton of pressure on the kid to ameliorate your own anxiety. He's got to go to this. He's got to do this. He's got it, you know? He's got to go to lacrosse practice again. He's got to be in the gym again. He's got it, you know? He's got know, he's got to do the recruiting process. He's got to do this XYZ. And I think it's just normalizing for a second that like, what are we actually attempting to try to build here? Are we trying to build a premier level athlete who goes on to college and is absolutely miserable with his his state in life? Because that's the direction I think we're going in. Is that I work with a lot of I work with 118 year old who stands out to me. He's like, he got down to Tulane, and he's like, for 18 years, everything's been carved for me. The path has been carved. All the extracurriculars has been carved out. I knew exactly where I was going to go. I was going to get into the best school possible. And then as soon as I got there, I got there, I didn't even know what I was doing there. And so we have just lost the plot. If that's the answer that your 18 year old son is giving you, what are we after? Are we trying to build perfect, robotic humans who are like straight A students and the best lacrosse player ever, or are we trying to actually build guys of like, strong character? And I truly believe that in a parent's heart of heart, if we can normalize that the pressure is real like, yeah, keeping up with the Joneses is like a real thing. Taking advantage of the resources you have is a real thing. Not seeing your kid live up to the potential that you once thought he could do is a real thing. We just have to normalize that it's really hard to watch your kid go in a different direction that you thought he should be going in, and yet, is he a good human? Is he going to make a difference in the world? Is he kind? Is he is he actually going to contribute? Right? Is he going to be a good partner? Is he going to be a good friend? Because when he, when he's on his deathbed, he's not going to give a shit if he, you know, graduated from Princeton with a four, oh, but was miserable, right? It's like we're trying to build humans.

    Jill Griffin 54:53

    Yeah, I don't know that that's, I don't know that there's a lot of people asking, parents, asking. Those questions all the times, especially when you're talking about high net worth, high status. When with that, that group of people, I will say, I send my kids off to school, and I say to them, be a kind friend like, that's what's important to me, right? Like, have fun today and be a kind friend. Like, that's that, that's it. Try your best and be kind like, because at the end of the day, and I instill in them, right? I'm like, you don't need to go to college. You don't I want to take, I want to take that pressure, because there's pressure from the world at large every right? And I think pressure actually can be a little healthy, just like I think anxiety, like that feeling of anxiety, there's a purpose to it, right? And I'd like your take on like, can pressure ever be healthy, or is it always a bad thing in the long term? Like, what? Because you work with athletes, you work with high performers. So there's pressure in those environments. And, you know, diamonds come from pressure, so there's some good that comes out of it.

    Speaker 1 56:01

    Let's go. We had to fact check that on one of the episodes. Yes, actually,

    Justin Carotti 56:08

    a line that coaches will use that, yeah, you don't get diamonds without pressure, pressure without times. I don't know exactly, yeah, so

    Speaker 1 56:15

    Coach,

    Jill Griffin 56:19

    I'm going to use that with the five, six and seven year olds on Sunday.

    Justin Carotti 56:23

    Pressure is a privilege. No doubt, I've been, I've been a direct beneficiary of pressure. You know, like pressure allows me to move forward, pressure allows me to hold myself to a higher standard. Pressure is important to apply. But here's the thing that I love, that you said, Jill, there's, there's enough out there already. So, yeah, we don't really need to manifest more and and I'll, I'll sort of describe this, let's say, if we were to juxtapose the natural consequences, which are creators of pressure in the world, and then the imposed pressures at home or elsewhere. So you can, you can, you can artificially impose pressure, in other words, or adversity, or you could just have it be naturally occurring in the environment. Right to me, I think it's important to see the place at home as a place where children can come back to and feel as though they are safe enough to recuperate, to process, to be authentic and not be judged, I guess is really what I'm saying, and then go out and apply yourself in whatever ways that your curiosities take you. So again, I'm not saying, you know, create a world where everyone gets a trophy, or create a world where, you know, everyone needs to, like, create a space for there to be no no pressure, like, never cut a kid from a team. Here, I'm not saying that. I'm saying, at home, there's a unique opportunity to never lose sight of the ultimate mission. We're not actually after building elite level across players or hockey players. It's not that's a side mission. It's important. It can be a venue in which we build character, but it's the character that we're after, isn't it? Right? What do you think, like a lot of parents will say, is like, I want my kid to be happy and healthy, or I want my kid to be content, or I want my kid to be fulfilled. So yeah, sure. Is hockey a way to for them to be fulfilled Absolutely, but not to the detriment of your relationship with that person. If you're arguing every single day about Johnny not going to the gym and playing hockey, maybe he doesn't really actually want it, or maybe we need to change our approach. So I want there to be pressure. I still think it's important that there be standards at home, right? So we know that assertive parenting, a high degree of love, support and care, with a high degree of sturdiness and firmness around boundary conditions, is the best conditions for children to be raised in. So that that can create pressure. That's fine, right? And when they come to you with the feelings of anxiety or overwhelm, or feelings of, you know, like not good enoughness, that that's got to be safe, that has to be safe at home, to be brought and work through,

    Jill Griffin 59:21

    yeah, I think the the approach to parenting in the sports arena is so fascinating. And you see this, like microcosm on your kids sports team very early. You see, and I you see the parent that, okay, this kid is six, and you are already lining them up to be an NFL player. And that might be, it might be a little early for that. And then, and then, you see, you know, it's already starting. You know, with year round travel teams, right? They're playing year round these kids. And, you know, I think there's a pressure for the parents that they feel, you. That if they're not doing that, then they're not going to get playing time, or, you know, whatever the thing is, right? And I keep instilling in my children, especially now that my daughter's she had her first all star experience this year, which definitely was more competitive, right? And she tends to be someone who, like, stops doing things and they become competitive, where I'm like, that's when I just started I get going, like, that's that's why I don't actually work out in a gym environment. Is because I believe that I'm competing against everybody in that gym when we're actually not competing. But in my mind, because that's how competitive I am, so I have to kind of attain myself sometimes around like this is their thing. And I've had to say to my daughter, listen, if you want the extra coaching, if you want to play this sport, if you want to be good at it, I'm telling you right now, it's on. It's going to be on you, and I'll follow wherever you go, and I will help and support you, but if you I will not be dragging you along. I know you have talent. I know you can be good. I you know, but also you have to want it, because there's this internal motivation that has to come from going outside and practicing when it's cold, going outside and practicing when it's hot, doing it when you don't feel like doing it, but you know, you have to, because you committed to doing a certain amount of reps a day, because at the end of the day, anyone who's really good at anything, they put the reps in. So that's kind of the reality that I communicate with them. Like, Listen, if you both of my kids have said, I'm going to play basketball at UConn, I said that at one point too. I said that at one point too when I played au basketball, and I will tell you that I started drinking far too often in high school for me to actually make it on a college basketball team. So there's

    Justin Carotti 1:01:56

    this wonderful story, a

    Molly Bierman 1:01:57

    little bit of a shifty ankle.

    Justin Carotti 1:02:02

    I talked to this practitioner who was a somatic practitioner out in Canada, and he's a dad of a high school daughter. He told me this amazing story about his daughter who is extraordinarily competitive, like flying to different parts of Canada to play in tournaments for volleyball. She was a junior. She was on her way to play collegiate volleyball like we're talking about an outstanding player, but right around the time in her high school career, she was also beginning to form an interest in theater and that production world. And she came to her dad at a juncture where there was a tournament that they were going to fly to, and there was also a massive production, but it was just the pre production you know, how these shows do a lot of prep work prior to the actual show? So it was just the initial pre production meeting. And then there was this massive tournament. We had this cool conversation, because he was like, this is a crazy parenting moment. He shared this with me prior to our daughter being born. He's like, look, I had to be really, really thoughtful and clear around what mattered. And you said something similar here Jill around, it's their journey. And so he asked her, like, what do you think you want to do? And she said, You know, I really want to be at the volleyball thing, but my heart tells me that I want to be with these guys as part of the pre production. And so she walked away from volleyball and attended this pre production, and now she's going to college for theater. It's like, what a hard decision for that dad probably have to swallow as he stood by and recognized that all that investment, all that time, all that potential, quote, unquote, is now being changed and pivoted. But whose journey are we on? Right? And, yeah, I give, I give that dad so much credit. And much like, I think this discussion is, I think, alluding to, can we have that wherewithal, that higher order thinking of, like, what are we actually after here? What are we actually doing? Maybe we needed 15 years of volleyball for that moment to happen,

    Speaker 1 1:04:01

    yeah, for her to feel confident enough to make a better decision.

    Jill Griffin 1:04:04

    There's all these other skills that kids get from playing sports, right, that team, that leadership stuff, that that grit, that

    Molly Bierman 1:04:13

    relationship, knowing that relationships. I mean,

    Jill Griffin 1:04:17

    there's, it's not always about being an elite athlete at the next level. That's not why we have our kids playing sports. And again, it goes back to why are we doing this? Like, you know, I do want this episode

    Molly Bierman 1:04:34

    is going to be hard for parents to hear. I'm going to tell you that right now, and I can think of a few parents where this would be hard to hear. Well, by the way, there is a lot of pressure.

    Justin Carotti 1:04:43

    We're not saying it's easy, right? Like, I think I had this conversation on Tuesday with a parent set high net worth. Their kid is going to go play collegiate sports, and we're just have, like, the cool thing when I have these kinds of conversations is it's like a secret conversation. It's like, you know, everyone knows this, but no one talks about it, right? Exactly, yeah. Like, it's like, it's okay, you guys, we can all kind of make fun of the fact that this is a game, right? And so, like, how do we want to play this game that works good with your family? It's like, yeah, you guys are millionaires. Yeah, he should probably be playing lacrosse. Yeah, we should probably be talking about advocacy, but how, you know, how can we do this in a way that makes sense? Okay, cool, break, go. Do your thing. Play the game, right? But it's not, I'm not. I'm not saying it's easy, and I'm also not judging at all. By the way, if you want to play status games and go for it, go for it. Go go to Yale. Have you have a blast. I'll be there to support you the whole way. I'm just gonna tell you it's hard.

    Jill Griffin 1:05:41

    Well, there's some emptiness and loneliness associated with that too, right? Because, again, coming from like the substance use world, right? You're looking to fill a void, right? There's a hole in your soul you're filling. Whether that's we could put it, it could be alcohol, drug status, whatever that thing is. But something that I was just gonna also remark on is there are also those kids and those just maniac level athletes, and mostly they make it to the pros. Those are the ones that make it to the next level that they are laser focused. They're going to be outside doing the reps. They're they're the ones driving the train. So I also don't want to say that. I also don't want to say that it's always the parents pushing them, although we have the examples of like, you know, Tiger Woods, dad and they're all there. There are those examples, too, of the parents who really push their kid to the next level. But some of these athletes, like you see them, I watched the Netflix series on like the quarterback and like some of those people, they will say, like, they've been obsessed from the beginning. This is their thing. They live, breathe, eat, their sport, and that that's what they that fulfilled them

    Molly Bierman 1:06:45

    so but I also think there is also the substance the the connection to the substance abuse is, you know, a whole nother part two to this podcast, to be honest, because we don't have time to get into all that. But I will say I remember a friend of mine who I think was a pretty decent football player, right? I don't know how far he went with his football career, but and then he really struggled with substance abuse, and eventually got sober years later, but he would equate his time on the field as he would score the winning touchdown, and everybody would go nuts, and there would be this chanting and cheering, and it would last maybe 40 seconds, we'll say, under a minute. And then the game would resume, and on to the kind of the next play. And he said he chased that cheer all the way, you know, post football, into substance abuse, that feeling, that feeling of, I made it right, yeah. And so there is this chase that happens that also can be a catalyst for good, but could also be a catalyst for that isolation, unworthiness, totally fear of not just enough.

    Jill Griffin 1:07:56

    I just saw this quote the other day, or some, some clip, and it was saying, how, like, all the cool kids, like, you know, the high school quarterback all, like, those popular kids in high school, like, now they're the ones, like, really struggling, because, yeah, the world doesn't applaud you, like they do when you're the star player of a small town high school team, okay, like, you were the biggest thing then and then you go out into the World and, like, that's just not how the world operates. You're not getting that recognition anymore.

    Justin Carotti 1:08:26

    Yeah, yeah. I mean, sorry about like, I think in some ways we're talking about divorcing ourselves from outcomes, which is hard to do, because I think, as you were referencing with that person you knew, Molly, like, if you continue to attribute your self worth to the outcomes that you receive, you'll consistently be left unfulfilled. Fulfillment is an internal project, and it has to be from within to without. So it's like, look, I still am extraordinarily competitive, and I still want to win. I have that internal drive very much, though, yeah, Jill, you were crushing the gym like, you know, you got to work out by yourself. Like, I guess I understand that that's a thing. But if I continue to attribute, like I said, if I continue to attach my entire self worth to whether or not I'm winning. Well, winning is not entirely in my control. You know, it's like, there's a lot of other factors. I have an opponent, and if the opponent, it's

    Jill Griffin 1:09:31

    also not binary, right? Like, winning could mean a lot of things.

    Justin Carotti 1:09:36

    Well, exactly, exactly this is, this is part of the work. I mean, now you're entering into the you know, you're a fly on the wall. For a lot of sessions, we have to begin to define these terms where we started, to define when we started this conversation, like, what is struggle? What is success? What is meaningful to you? What is winning actually mean? Is it actually valuable? Right? Is it. How do you know, like, when you get there, how will you know, the classic, like, pretty much every athlete post winning, something will be like, yeah, the winning was cool, but I the next day, I kind of forgot about it. So it's a peak experience. But the thing that resonates with you is all the work that you did to get there. This sort of the old trope of, you know, the journey is more important than the destination, but like, that's where I think we want to pay a lot more attention to, is all the grinding is the fun part. So set yourself up for big, hairy, audacious goals and identify them and be ambitious in achieving them, but recognize that, like achieving them isn't the actual fun part, it's the stuff to get there. That's the fun part.

    Molly Bierman 1:10:47

    Well, I think this is a really good segue into some of the more, I wouldn't say, controversial questions, but a little bit more risky questions that we wanted to ask in terms of men versus women. And so we had a couple thoughts. And I think because you're our first male guest, it's and given your career and you know your profession, I think you're really you're an expert in your space. And so when we really thought about this episode, some of the questions that are important to us is to understand what it's like for a man to be married or to be in relation with a high performing woman. So where does that rub against? Maybe your traditional masculinity. Maybe where does it rub against? And I'm not saying you specifically. I'm saying the people that you work with. Where does it rub up against? Maybe the high performer, young adult male who then transitions into a different space in adulthood, right? Maybe that change happens for them, where they were once in a different type of arena and then in adulthood that shifted. So really understanding your lens and what you see as maybe some of the takeaways in that space.

    Justin Carotti 1:12:07

    Well, I happen to be married to a high performer. Oh,

    Speaker 1 1:12:11

    great, and

    Justin Carotti 1:12:15

    I can speak to my experience and a little bit to my experience with clients as well the metaphor that I tend to use here is two trains, you know, like, when you're on the train to New York City, sometimes they're, like, within six inches. And they kind of freak you out. They could both be heading in the same direction, but they're literally totally six inches away from each other. So, like, if, if the if you're just a single train, like, you don't have any inputs, you don't have any different sense of direction, like you just are heading in one way. And what I think a lot of the times we're looking for in partnership, in a relationship, is someone who can join us in that same direction, that same path, parallel path, and be supportive in a way, the highest performers feel safe enough at home to continue to perform at high levels. Look no further than any professional athlete who credits their wife or credits their support team for their ability to continue to play at the highest level. When a person wins US Open, I think is happening, or just happened, when a person wins the US Open, what's the first thing that they do? They go over to the corner of the court, and they celebrate with their team, their family, their support staff. The highest performers don't do it alone. In fact, it's quite the opposite. The highest performers are in relationship with other people who can point out gently but compassionately and firmly the challenges that that person might be up against, because they can hold a mirror to that person like nobody else, and they are offering the opportunity to share experiences that makes the experience of high performance that much more fulfilling. If you were to do it alone, by yourself and never get to celebrate, it wouldn't be worth it again. Going back to the to the analogy of people who win the Super Bowl, Imagine not being able to celebrate with your team after like you win, you grab the trophy, you get back on your plane. It's like the whole point is to celebrate with everyone. It's the it's the shared experience that makes it beautiful and it makes it worth finding so I do think connecting that to what it means to be a young high performer. A lot of times it's just difficult to get to that place like I don't think my 24 year old self would have said what I just said. You know, I think it's a pretty you're pretty egocentric when you're in your 20s. I think you're still trying to identify what you care about. And so the world tends to be kind of revolving around you. And generally speaking, I don't think you have a great deal of empathy or understanding for another person's experience. But as you get older, you realize that it's just like first of all, a, way harder by yourself, B, way more fun with other people. And C, you might as well find. Find people who are on the same parallel path as you, and that's a lot of the relational work that I do is trying to like young men don't always feel comfortable on the outside, as we referenced before, talking about struggles, but one area that a lot of people struggle with men and women is just relationship. And so in the context of therapeutic work, can we open up a dialog around how relationships allow you access to the best version of yourself, and that's something we can talk about in our work.

    Molly Bierman 1:15:26

    Well, knowing that you're married to you know your lovely wife who's a high performer, where do you feel like you find the most lessons that you take away from her about resilience, adaptability? It's like balance, grit.

    Justin Carotti 1:15:43

    She's She's literally, she's way more grounded than I am and the things that are important. So I have a tendency of completely over indexing on things like work when I, like, try really hard not to. But like, one of the things that's I'm most impressed by in my relationship with her is that she has never lost sight of what matters most, and it is incredibly grounding for me to just be, to be drawn back to Earth like literally daily. She's also way, way nicer than me, so she helps me be a better version of myself. I'm super grateful that our daughter gets to see her because I'm not always super kind, or maybe I'm just anxious and very introverted and hiding, but she's much more sociable, and so in terms of strength, like I have learned a lot about how to interface with people in a kinder way. Like, I go to gyms and I'll be, like, very, very quiet and reserved and like, try to, like, break skulls and smash weights. And she's chatting up like random people, and, you know, forming relationships with people. We go on vacation, go to gyms and stuff. She'll, she'll form relationships. So, I mean, what an what an amazing skill, like, what an amazing strength, what an amazing thing that I get access to, that I can try to build off of and be kinder with people around me. And she's never really lost sight of the fact that you can be high performing, but also sort of like, chill out a little bit like, you don't have to be dialed all the time. It's a little bit difficult for me as a business owner, self employed, where I kind of like it's always in my head, and I admire and envy her ability to not have that happen. So I think there's just a level of, like, balance or groundedness that I really appreciate, and this is specific to my relationship.

    Jill Griffin 1:17:45

    It's funny, because that's literally husband. That's my husband, right? My husband is the nicer one who's batting everybody. Yes, that same maybe, maybe, yeah, maybe, if there's

    Molly Bierman 1:17:56

    something about that, we have to check our guests, because every guest that we've had on is is the unkind one? I'm not sure what's happening, yeah? Right, as

    Justin Carotti 1:18:06

    as type A, type a hard nose, sort of driven folks, I think we're not straight, you know, Ma, you spoke to this in the podcast I listened to when Joe was interviewing him. It's like, we're not afraid to mix it up with people, because we want the best out of ourselves and the people around us, yeah, so being assertive is like kind of a natural disposition. It's allowed me to enter into leadership positions, but at the same time, you know that doesn't always track very well, and like forming new relationships,

    Jill Griffin 1:18:34

    do you feel that men, men feel threatened by female leadership? Like just you saying that assertive comment, right? Juxtapose like a man versus a woman being assertive. Like, do you feel like there's some dynamic there?

    Justin Carotti 1:18:49

    Well, there's definitely a dynamic. I was incredibly fortunate to grow up in a house where my mom was a entrepreneur and a leader, and someone that my dad respected and continuously respect. And so for me, it's not really an issue. I actually appreciate the difference of opinion, the leadership that women can bring to the table. I feel more comfortable in certain instances with women at the helm, because I think they actually have a greater sense of what makes things work when it comes to developing a team, they are, on a whole, far less egocentric and far more like well rounded. And so this is my personal opinion. But again, a lot of that stuff has been formed due to my personal experiences. I think, to your point, Jill, I do think a lot of men are threatened by women in positions of power, probably because of a variety of factors. A, they're not very accustomed to it, which is the opposite of my experience. B, it's a little bit of a reflection of just how little or challenging they are now in. Like the position they are now in is that they have to do. More and sometimes, I think men can feel as though they're maybe in a position of privilege just because they're a male, and they're not actually accustomed to having to do the levels of work that women are more likely likely to have done to get to where they got right. It's like you have to really grind to get to a position of influence and power, because you're marginalized on the most cases, and men are not like in these kinds of work fronts. So when a guy shows up, he's like, Wait, this is supposed to just happen, right? It's like, Yeah, not really. So I think there's an element of that as well. And there's an inferiority, there's a fear of inferiority, just in general. So if I don't feel like I'm good enough with like, we talked about this prior, but if I don't feel good enough in my peer group, I'm not gonna open up. If I don't feel good workplace, I'm not gonna open up. And if a woman is positioning themselves in a position of power, I might innately feel a sense of inferiority, even if it's not something I like fully am conscious of. And so like, what does that mean in terms of my performance and how I might treat that person unfairly or judgmentally or misogynistically, and these are all things that I need to, I think need to be worked on. Of course, yeah.

    Molly Bierman 1:21:11

    I mean, I really believe that in order to feel balanced, especially in relationship, and I think Jill and I spent a lot of time on this, you know, to not feel, to be sensitive to where people are, and to not come off as a threat, or to be inclusive. I think that's a really it's a hard balance. I mean, I think a lot of times when you're leading a team, you have to have this level of presence, but you also have to have a level of warmth and strength and, yeah, I would say that, you know, seeing women do it and seeing men do it, women have a natural kind of maternal instinct that feels a little bit more natural in that arena. Oh, for sure, sure, there's a clarity in mission. Yeah, there's a clarity,

    Justin Carotti 1:22:00

    and direction that, like, it feels far more I think you guys may have mentioned this, and I think it's worth just sort of highlighting scarcity versus abundance mindset. Like, even if a person is experiencing scarcity mindset, there's a recognition that it takes a village not to go crazy evolutionary psychology. But like, I think women are just more predisposed to be more collaborative, and like that tends to work. That tends to get things done,

    Jill Griffin 1:22:25

    especially on a team. Yeah, for sure, yeah. Well, I thought this conversation was fantastic. One thing that we do with all of our listeners is we ask, or with all of our guests, I'm sorry, is we ask them to do what we call a permission slip, which is giving our audience a permission slip, something that maybe they need to do in their life.

    Justin Carotti 1:22:50

    I was prepared to take away.

    Jill Griffin 1:22:53

    You were prepared. I did your tight guy.

    Justin Carotti 1:22:57

    No, my softball. I beat you to it because I listened to your podcast and I listened today. I got to listen to the whole thing.

    Jill Griffin 1:23:05

    He came prepared people,

    Justin Carotti 1:23:09

    so the permission that I would give is to view your life in decades and give yourself time to become the person that you want to become, or don't even know who you will be, but in life, there's a level of faith that you'll get there. I think so often in my life and the people that I work with, there's this like weird, like I'm not where I'm supposed to be, kind of feeling. And when you write your biography or your autobiography, you don't really talk about like, what happened on one specific day, like no one's going to talk about, you know, September 5, 2025 when we're recording this, they're going to talk about the evolution of Justin across a 10 year time horizon. And so how can I be 36 years old and be on this podcast when my 26 year old self would have laughed at that. Well, isn't that the fun part? You have to give yourself permission to enjoy that part of the journey and not rush it.

    Jill Griffin 1:24:13

    I love that.

    Molly Bierman 1:24:15

    Me too. Such a great ending, such cherry on top. I really feel like we will likely have to have a part two dialog at some point, super excited for you and your new venture. So if people want to find you Justin, do you want to just share a little bit of how people find you, how people connect with you, before we wrap

    Justin Carotti 1:24:36

    up? Yeah, and hopefully you guys can just pop the links in the easiest way to find us as a company is just valiant counseling.com. You'll learn about our approach. All of our providers, male and female, have a background in high performance, high performing athletics or high performance in their own personal lives. We're all licensed there. This. And so we, we've, we didn't really talk too much about failure to launch today. We talked a lot about, like, sort of high performance. But we do a pretty nice job bifurcating who we work with in in that way. So we'll work with, let's say, high school to well into adulthood, in transitional phases of life. And our team does a good job. So you can find us at valiant counseling.com personally, you can find me via my LinkedIn Justin karate. And I also have a newsletter that you can join that will be linked. It's 1% better. It comes out every Monday at 530 quick three minute read to give you some insights from a mental health and mental performance side. So I look forward to seeing some people join.

    Speaker 1 1:25:38

    Amazing. Thank you so much for joining

    Justin Carotti 1:25:41

    yeah pleasure. Thank you so much guys. Appreciate it. Enjoy your weekend. Thanks for having me.

    Speaker 1 1:25:45

    You too. Thanks. Bye.

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