When Relationships Grow (or Don’t Grow) With You

Jan 20

Episode 30 with Jill Griffin & Molly Bierman

In this episode of No Permission Necessary, Molly Bierman and Jill Griffin explore how relationships evolve as we grow, and what happens when they don’t grow with us.

Through an honest conversation about leadership, friendship, and work dynamics, they unpack the emotional weight of responsibility, the loneliness that can come with owning a business, and the difference between offering support and carrying more than your share. The episode touches on outgrowing friendships, navigating loyalty versus competence, and the grief that comes with letting go of people who are still alive but no longer aligned.

This conversation is for anyone noticing shifts in their relationships, questioning old expectations, and learning that being selective with time, energy, and connection is not rejection. It is clarity.

What are we talking about today?
I feel like we're talking about friendships and the ever evolving sense of self around friendships. I can tell you my sense of self was only held up by friendships this week. I barely made it through the week. So that's where I'm at. Well, why don't you tell us why? It was just a week. And not the specifics, but you know what I mean. It was just...
You know what's wild is that I actually had really intense moments of gratitude this week for like being a business owner and all of the freedoms that that's allowed me to have and like creating this thing and all that stuff. But also I had an immense amount of, I'm going to say rage. Rage?
Yes, there was some rage which I feel like is an extreme word and It dissipated quickly, but I wouldn't even call it anger. It was like I was
The thing is, I have to wrap my head around this, no one that works for you can understand the challenges you're facing as the owner. you can't, it doesn't matter how transparent you are appropriately so with your staff, like they just don't understand the pressures and the decisions and all of the things that go into it. And there was just some like dynamics that came up this week where I was just like very much feeling alone in.
in decisions that had to be made and things that had, and alone in the sense of like the responsibility of it.
I feel like it struck a chord in you that you really. Yeah. You know what it is? It's, feel like third time's a charm. And I feel like it's this lesson that I've repeatedly had to learn this year and I'm leaving it in 2025. So I'm setting that out there. You cannot help people that do not want to be helped.
And I think from a client side, when it's a client and I'm the therapist, that I can do that all day long. Like put it back on the clock. This is your work to do. This is my part, you know? But when somebody in your life, whether that's a friend, and this can segue into friends, or it's ⁓ a staff, an employee, somebody you mentor, it's like, there's a difference between somebody saying they want help and support and...
how they actually utilize the support that's provided. Because sometimes people say they want help or support, but then they want it in a very specific way that only they are willing to accept in a certain way. And then it's like, but that's not actually what you need, maybe. Like sometimes the medicine isn't always what we need or want. Well, I think that that's a very valid point. I feel like a lot of the times I have to be really clear. And I think what came up for me yesterday, I had a
I've been meeting with a women's leadership group that I've been a part of for about a decade, maybe a little under.
So yesterday I had this meeting with the group and
You know, we were going around and doing our check-ins and people were talking about work relationships and romantic relationships and friendships And what I really walked away from of wanting to essentially leave behind, Just something that feels very relevant in my life right now is taking stock into other
people's challenges and problems and being more vested in fixing those things than they are. Which is like pretty much the same. So I think that's why I got so spun out because it was people who made statements as if I had not helped or
done what I was supposed to do. Which I think that strikes a chord because it's like, meanwhile, here I am spending time consulting with other people on what's the right thing to do, spending all my time to do the right thing. I make a decision, you don't like it, now I'm the bad guy. Well, this came up.
you know, in the last couple of months is when my integrity feels like it's threatened. I wouldn't say threatened, questioned. Definitely. But I didn't think of it that way, which I know we've talked about this. And I think integrity is questioned a lot as a business owner. Oh, I mean, I think this happens if you don't know, you make assumptions about anything. Yeah. Well, you know, right. So
When you're an employee, I don't care where you are, you have these grandiose ideas about what type of money people are making and also what that looks like. Like how much they're working, what their actual versus what it actually is. And regardless, you know, I say to people like if you want to make a lot of money, there should be nothing wrong with that. Number one, we're in a capitalist society, like, sorry, but if you want to make money as a business owner, there's nothing wrong with that.
You have to make ethical decisions, like all those things, karmically, I feel like, trickle down, right, into the rest of your business, what you're doing. But at the bottom and the core of it, it's like, I'm making decisions not just for myself financially, it's for all these other people and families who rely on a paycheck here. That's a lot of responsibility. And you have to be financially responsible as a business or nobody has a job. Well, I think that a lot of the times,
It's too much for somebody to grasp.
You know, I think as you develop and as we've developed, some of the things that I felt very convicted about were really only through my lens. You know, I wasn't looking at the greater medusa of the company. Right. Yeah. Most people think and listen, at the end of the day,
some decisions that you make and this is not just in business, I think in life, no matter what you make as a decision, it's going to be a difficult road. Like I think there's just some of those choice points that were like, no matter what, this sucks to do. Even if it's the right thing, it can still be the right thing and the hardest thing. So I don't know, but I will say in terms of like,
friendship and getting me through. you don't have to answer me right now, but I'm just going to be like word vomiting through like text or voice note right now, just because I need to get this out somewhere because
I have to behave in a way where I'm not making a situation worse. And sometimes that means saying what I want to say to somebody to somebody else. What do feel like people's hot take on voice notes is? Do people like them?
Do they not like them? I think it's personal preference. I enjoy them. I mean, I will tell you that we will kind of talk all day through a voice note.
Sometimes something just needs to be said. I am somebody who like I have to there are some things I can internally process most things though I need to externally process and just like get it out and so sometimes I just have to talk it through because most times you say something out loud
And you realize how absolutely insane this is that you are actually making this a problem in your life. Like out of all the fucking things. Well, I think there's like this core mantra that I've used and maybe you need to use it too. Is does it need to be said? Does it need to be said by me? Does it need to be said right now? That's fine. I use that. do you? It feels like you maybe don't
No, I use that mantra by saying what needs to, but I- Just to somebody else. To somebody else, yeah. Does this need to be said by me? Right now it does. Does it need to be said right now? In the near future, yes.
Yeah, that's good. I just say it to somebody else so that I don't have to make amends for saying something that I know I shouldn't say to that person. Yeah. But it's like maybe a little bit of Tourette's. Like I just have to get it out. I just I can't keep it in. It's poison. I need to get it out. Maybe that's why I like journaling so much. Well, you know, I was watching. I need a purge. I was. So we are going to do a little bit of that this weekend. We're going to purge a little bit. We're going to. Molly said we're doing a burning ceremony. We're going to do a burning ceremony. Yes.
I think it's going to be all this is getting put in the fire. I don't know where we're making a fire. She's getting wood delivered here. So this must be a huge fire with a lot of shit we're behind. We're leaving some things behind. and it's really, I don't know, each year feels a little bit more and a little bit more cozy. I don't know if that's like the best word, but
It feels like I'm knowing more about what I can no longer. Wait till you get to 40. Wait till, because I'm telling you right now there was something about turning 40 this year that I was like, yeah, no, I'm not dealing with this bullshit anymore. because you know what? It's not like a midlife crisis in the sense of like, I'm old now, but it's like, all right, let's be realistic. I got 40 good more years.
I mean, yeah, I could live to 100, I don't, I'm not, life is too short to be dealing with bullshit. Yeah, I agree. And so in the vein of like adult friendships and all of that stuff, it's like, I think we sometimes have this nostalgia around friends and friendship. Yes. Whether it's your childhood friends, which let me be clear. I grew up in a family. My parents still hang out with people they went to kindergarten with.
Wow. Kindergarten. Yeah. I mean, that doesn't totally surprise me like parents, but I mean, my parents have way more friends than me, way more popular than me. Anyone that hangs out at my parents house is like, your parents are so cool. Like I want to come back. so I grew up seeing that. Yeah. But I also think that.
we sometimes hang on to these relationships out of obligation of like the nostalgia of it. Versus like- that give you a skewed perception? Cause I also grew up around-
Friends my mom made a lot of friends with You know other moms kids. We had like a whole we grew up in a very big neighborhood and everyone was really Connected because we grew up in an era of no no phones no social media no laptops You know anything like that. Like skewed how because
really connected to relationships rather than connect to self and then relationships. I think that my period of active alcoholism and drug addiction and like that whole path I took really painted a lot of like my view of what friendships are because frankly there was a lot of people that
exited my life during that time, right? And rightly so. think I wasn't a person that really anyone should be around. But I really, saw how my parents, family, friends, people showed up for me after I got sober, after I was in rehab, after I got out of jail, right? People treated me with dignity and respect However, there were a lot of
childhood friends that never came back around. I have a couple of people who I've always been like in my corner, I feel like that's more of what skewed my relationship of like, ⁓ there are people that will be next to you no matter what, and then there's going to be fair weather friends or friends that you outgrow.
what you can relate it to is like your high school friends, your college friends, people you have this shared experience with.
And if you have that shared experience, you think they're going to be there forever. They're not because things happen. Totally disagree on how to parent your child. You don't like the person's spouse. You get into an argument about something you. We have different versions of ourselves, I think, And sometimes the people that we were friends with.
they don't change in the ways that, I don't know, sustain our relationship and that's okay. Yeah, I think that what I saw growing up was an immense, you know, social life, right? we were always doing something. Yeah, with other people. Always. And so I've really had to get clear on when I feel my social...
my battery, I wouldn't say social battery, my battery with myself versus my family versus my extended family versus friends. And that's taken some balancing because in the beginning, I remember feeling this innate kind of desire to just want to be around people. All the time. I think that has shifted. I love being alone. That shifted.
For me, adult friendships, the bigger problem is like
these shifts in the relationships and people feeling like something's wrong. Sometimes, sometimes you just drift apart. Whether it's schedule, whether it's, you know, and maintaining them as you get older and you have kids and you have career, like it's a juggling act. Maintaining friendships is extremely challenging. And I will say, because you sometimes feel like you're not giving enough of yourself to that relationship. At least that's how I feel. But what I will...
you that I've noticed over the years is that it's a little bit more fluid. your energy is going to whatever is necessary in that moment. So whether that's doing this podcast or going and picking my child up from school.
you know, all the different balancing acts that take place throughout the day. And I kind of equate that as well to friendships and relationships because really it's about
who needs my time and who do I want to spend time with at any given moment. So I feel like it is more fluid than anything. It is that, but it's also...
I feel like there's something about being around this age where it's like, I'm no longer giving my attention to people that aren't reciprocating it either. Yeah, I would agree with that. not like there's anything wrong with that. It's just, I have a limited amount of time. Yeah.
I said jokingly to someone because they were like, oh, I'm not available to talk. It's like, don't worry. There are very few scenarios. And you've been one of those calls in a couple of times where I'm like,
no, whatever you're doing, needs to fucking be dropped right now because we're in a crisis situation. I think there's only one good time where you're like, are you okay? I am not okay. Yeah, there was a few of those. There was a few of those when you're going through some of the health complexities and some of the other things. You know, and I think that that's really the telling part of the relationship, right? Is when you can say clearly what you need. And...
But if you can't do that as an adult, I'm gonna tell you, it's going to lead to resentment, it's going to lead to fractured relationships. Let down expectations. because what happens is, well, they should have been there. Did you tell them you needed them? Because the reality is, we got a million things going on. mean, we have to be pretty, we have to be direct.
But I think that's also the part about the employer too, right?
people having expectations of what they feel like they should have been met with. That you give an opportunity for the person to voice what it is that they need. Look, there are some people that need handholding to be able to speak up. You are...
to a degree responsible to help coach, mentor, lift people up, supervise, help have the hard conversations. But if you give that opportunity time and time and time again. we're talking about finding time. That's the frustration though. Right? Where it's like, I was clear on my expectations. We have this meeting, we have this meeting. Now you're so shocked by this or?
surprise like that's That doesn't that's surprising to me, right? I'm surprised now
But you know what I was thinking when I was thinking about this topic before I came down? was like, I don't know if we've ever gotten into an argument. You and I? No. I don't think we have. You've told me hard truths and I'm like, you're being really annoying and I have to go now.
But I will say that- I also have gotten better with like at friends. I'll be like, listen, I didn't like that you did that. Like that was fucked up or something. it takes a lot for me to feel like something's a big deal I think.
So I really... Well, the way we lived our lives just in general, I can notice if I'm talking to somebody who does not work in this field and also is not in recovery, if I tell a story, a work story, and that's when I realize, oh, I'm on a different level of distress tolerance when it comes to chaos and crisis. They're like, wait, what? How did you get to this point of
tolerating this behavior. like, this is just like normal.
our level for distress tolerance is. Well, that's why it was like for me to get that twisted this week. was like, listen, it's 2026 people. Everyone needs to get their shit together. We are no longer tolerating the bullshit.
Everyone needs to get their shit together. This is your warning. I We're not doing it anymore. I mean this is wild. I agree. I do I also think that that saying that your mother told you when you were younger because most parents told their children this you are who you hang out with and I do I know because I totally What but I was
Every if I look back at every period of my life the five closest people to me I was doing the same shit as those five people. and actually I don't know who did this study. I don't know I'm not gonna able to reference it correctly However, there is a study that showed that if the five closest people to you are obese Your your likelihood of being obese is exponentially higher. So like there are actually physical consequences too of like
your weight, your health indicators, all of these things that are associated based on like, and if you think about it, mean, weight, especially it's like a lifestyle thing, right? A lot of times, like if you're around people that are not physically fit, exercising, versus if you are around people- Or drinking or- Or drinking, right? So like it's the same thing. they're- I'm not gonna be hanging out with much people that drink every night because we're sober. Yeah, people aren't, but you-
And the reason for that is that you need those five closest people to have those hard conversations. And they do that by holding up a mirror and reminding you this isn't who you are. And if it is, I have to take a step back because that's not how I am. And every friendship has some sort of like mutual values that you believe in. It has to. Because if you don't, there can't really be a relationship. Right.
Sometimes the alignment just no longer there. Yeah. And I think that that that's okay. I think really the the piece of it is your own internal acceptance around it. Well, that's what's hard. I was, you know, one of the hardest grief lessons and I know, you know, we've had grief experts on here before. But when I do therapy work with clients, it's around the loss of
people who are still alive. Yes. That's tough. Yeah, because really what happens is that- a hole is left where that person once was and they're only a phone call away. But you're like, but it's over or it's different or it's there. They can't be that person for me anymore. And having that closure and having to be able to walk that closure is tough. I've had to do that in multiple situations and also just grieving even
you know, environments, right? So the grief process that I walked through was the last business that we built and left, you know, so built and sold. So I think that those lessons are so valuable though.
I don't think I trusted the process as much as I thought I did, you know? I think I felt pretty convicted and then when I actually got to the end of the road and now it's been a full 12 months, and it felt like it flew by, I feel like the grief process really did just finally kind of end. Well, wasn't any like grand finale, but it just kind of finally started to...
Walking people through divorces or ending any type of relationship, right? Whether it's a relationship and the business one would be the same. You can't really start the grief process until the final cord is severed. Right, So like that's when it kind of starts.
Well, I think what would be fun, I'm calling an audible
I'm nervous. We're going to do a rapid fire questionnaire on relationships, friendships, rapid fire questionnaire.
Okay. You ready? I guess. All right. So I'm gonna ask you first. What's changed the most? and you'll 30 seconds. hits. 30 seconds? 30 seconds. What has changed most about your friendships since becoming a leader? My friendships have become more intentional. What I mean by that is I definitely planned, I was doing this today, planning a hangout with somebody and the person was like, I probably can't until January, February. Great, let's get on the calendar. You're right.
Like, because if it's not on the calendar, it's not gonna happen. And so I think I've been more intentional with keeping up with the people that I really wanna keep in my circle. Great. guys. Do you feel more selective or more isolated than you used to?
I feel more selective. don't feel very would be the difference?
I think isolated would feel like I'm comparing out a Like you're pushing people away. feel like I'm just more selective in where and who I spend my time with. She chose me this weekend, guys. Just wanna throw that out there.
Okay, have you ever outgrown a friendship you didn't expect to? Yes. More than once, actually. More than once. Okay. I I had somebody in my wedding party that I don't speak to. And it was pretty much like right after that, we never spoke to again.
I had someone who was supposed to be in my wedding who said they were going to get the dress and then I never heard from them again. Yeah. A decade of friendship.
Listen, listen up. I'm going to tell you something right now. For those who are not married.
This is a therapist talking now. This is when the weirdest things come up in friendships, any type of relationships, in families. Divorce. Marriage. Babies. Yes. And death. most bizarre. The most bizarre. Because you know what it is? People don't know how to react. And I will also add in terms of babies is when there is a loss, a miscarriage.
Any type of yeah child loss People don't know how to react whether it's a good emotion or a bad emotion They're getting so awkward that they back off which is then felt as a hurt right like that like you have now Hurt me because you're not there for me and you're supposed to be my friend totally and I have just heard the most bizarre stories. Yes It triggers people and everybody says it won't happen to them. I fully didn't think it would happen to me. I mean
Yeah, and it wasn't even, you know what it is though? I look back at those relationships now that I've outgrown and it was meant to be. Totally. Because the relationships that I, listen, at this point in my life as a leader, as a mother, as a selection, I select people who are also growth oriented and can also push me to grow because I often will get stuck in a position where I'm pulling everybody up. Right.
I'm whether it's because I'm the therapist in this situation or the coach or the this or
I need other people that are better than me at things and it This isn't me saying it from an egotistical place. It becomes harder to do that the more high performing you are Yeah, so that's where it goes back to the isolation verse selective Yeah, yeah because you have to really be intentional with like no no, I need to be in an uncomfortable situation where
that person's gonna make me better by like really sharpening my edges. Yeah.
Is it harder to lead people you genuinely like?
No, I would say it's easier. I would say when I genuinely like someone, feel like values are aligned. And so if I'm really operating from a genuine, authentic lens, both in my work environment, as well as in my personal life, home life, etc., then me leading someone who is aligned in values is much easier. I know there's somebody listening like, wait, my boss might not like me. Yeah. What?
Yeah, but they might not I mean that's if you're good you're not gonna show that you don't like the person no But yeah, there's probably but look you can't get a little everyone's not gonna like you. No There's too many people in this world and you're not gonna get along with all but I think that people that I do like it makes it a little bit easier to feel like I can lead and have our Conversations and that there's a genuine reciprocity there. Okay
She's paying a hard one for me. that's what she's doing. this is a good one. What matters more in work relationships, loyalty or competence? Yikes. That's a good one.
That's so hard because I really do value competence. I really like competence, competent people. However, yeah, but I don't think that's the actual answer because I think with loyalty, especially when you're talking about a team, and I think that that proved that this week by some of the responses that I got from some of my staff, it's like, not everyone's like the A plus student.
Like sometimes you're a C student, like that loyalty, the loyalty goes far because like that loyal person can make the difference in a team dynamic. Totally. Yeah, I would agree with that. Like I think. And sometimes competency can be taught. So yeah, depends what. Loyalty can't be taught. Loyalty cannot. If you're a sketchy person, you're just probably what you are.
What does accountability look like in adult friendships? Ooh, I feel like I just went through that. I accountability is really being reflective of my part in things. And if there was harm caused, there was, if I was angry, if I was resentful, if I had misplaced emotion on a situation, I think it's just really having accountability internally.
and then being able to vocalize that.
How do power dynamics change friendships?
That's such a weird question. Well.
I have worked with many friends and I do feel like that could be a power dynamic that can definitely change friendships if not I have had it happen or change friendships. Yeah. And how does it? I mean
That's so tough because I don't think there's like a one size fits all answer to that. No, I think there's a multitude of factors whether someone doesn't want to grow at the rate that you're growing because when we think of power, well, what is power? Power is maybe having more financial stability, more career stability, family stability. Ability to make choices. There's a lot of different things. So I think it's really just
The instability in that dynamic is really whether or not someone feels empowered by that and feels accepting and loving towards you. Well, and it's also how they interpret it.
I have some friends where if you think about those things, the power dynamic has definitely shifted,
They're happy for you. They're your cheerleader. They're happy to be along for Where there's other people where it's like, they get jealous. Yeah. And you're like, all right, well, I'm not going to stop shining my light because it's burning your eyes. I don't know what to tell you. Whoa. Did you just make that up on the fly? I did.
That was good. Put on some sunglasses, okay? Put on some shades, because we're turning it up a notch in 2026.
I keep putting me down up on the fly. On a Friday? It was the coffee, I think. At 2.30? I mean, I've been up for a solid almost 12 hours too, so you know, things are about to go off the rails quickly.
Okay, last one. Go ahead. What do you no longer tolerate? Oof. I feel like I don't tolerate much. Her level of tolerance was low to begin with guys before we entered into this. Yeah. It's really low. Um, what don't I tolerate?
I guess I'll keep it in the work lane. think what I don't tolerate is...
when I am providing direction, providing accountability and providing support, and there's still an excuse. That's my fucking week in a nutshell. Okay, it's enough. So we're no longer doing that. I'm just the announcements been made. We're not doing it anymore. That's it. That's it.
And we'll both, I guess we'll both answer this last one what advice would you have given your younger self about relationships?
I'll go first while you're thinking, I already know. That less is more. I think that going back to that feeling of growing up around a large community, I do love a large community and I do have acquaintances and mom friends and all that wonderful community that becomes built when you're building a life of freedom, essentially.
The face down moments don't have to be with that whole group, right? So, less is more. When people show you their true colors, when they show you who they are, believe them the first time. Put on your sunglasses. Put on your shades. Because I think that what happens is you make excuses for people and their bad behavior.
I ignored some pink flags, I ignored some red flags, I want people to be better than they want to be. Yeah. You want them to outwork you. Yeah. That's got me. Guys, thank you for tuning in to our joint episode. No permission necessary. Give us a like, subscribe on YouTube, on Instagram, on Spotify, on Apple, all of the platforms.
We were having a great time sharing our experience, sharing other people's experience, and we hope you stay along for the ride. Until next time. Peace.