From Homeless to Building a Bakery Empire

Written By The Ghost Co.

Episode 37 with Janie Deegan

In this episode of No Permission Necessary, Jill and Molly sit down with Janie Deegan, founder of Janie’s Life-Changing Baked Goods, to talk about recovery, resilience, and the unexpected path to entrepreneurship.

Janie shares how baking during early sobriety helped her reconnect with purpose and eventually led to the creation of a thriving bakery brand known for its signature pie crust cookies. What began as a simple way to connect with people grew into a business built on community, honesty, and perseverance.

Together, they explore the realities of starting a business with no formal background, the power of mentorship, and why collaboration and community support can make all the difference in both recovery and entrepreneurship.

Website: http://janiebakes.com

Facebook, Instagram & Tiktok: @janiedbakes

  • Jill Griffin (00:00)

    We are so excited for today's episode. Janie Deegan is the founder of Janie's Life Changing Baked Goods, a New York City bakery known for its signature pie crust cookies. I have not tried one yet, but I have heard they are delicious. She has three storefront locations with a fourth on the way. She started this company in 2015 while in recovery from addiction and after experiencing homelessness, gradually growing it from selling at local markets.

    into a nationally recognized brand featured on the Today Show, Good Morning America, the New York Times and the New Yorker. She's also won Chop Sweets and has appeared four times on Watch What Happens Live on Bravo. Please join us today as we talk with Janie about everything good, bad and otherwise about building a food service business and what those challenges look like. And she just has such a beautiful message of connection in the community. So we are so happy to have her on today.

    Jill Griffin (02:01)

    I feel like you're low-key celebrity status on our podcast right now.

    Janie Deegan (02:04)

    What?

    Molly Bierman (02:06)

    Jill was like, how do we get cookies?

    Jill Griffin (02:08)

    Yeah, was

    like, are we gonna have cookies to eat while we're podcasting?

    Janie Deegan (02:11)

    I know I should have sent you, I like, it's been

    such a crazy week, but I should have sent cookies before, because that would have been a pro move.

    Molly Bierman (02:17)

    It would have been a problem.

    Jill Griffin (02:17)

    I'm not

    above eating cookies at 10 a.m. at all.

    Janie Deegan (02:22)

    I love it.

    Molly Bierman (02:23)

    Yeah

    I mean, let's get into it. I don't really know your story. We met at a birthday party and a luxurious, glamorous birthday party. connected with you around just your authenticity, your, a little bit of your story, your...

    Janie Deegan (02:26)

    Yeah.

    in Miami.

    Molly Bierman (02:46)

    passion for just recovery and entrepreneurship. But this is the second time we've connected and that was a couple of years ago. And so really want, and the climate we were in, it didn't offer the ability to go through your whole story. So I'm really excited for you to be here and things business, recovery, or face down moments. why don't us back.

    Jill Griffin (02:57)

    Okay.

    Molly Bierman (03:12)

    to 2015

    and what your life actually looked like when Janie's life-changing baked goods began, essentially.

    Janie Deegan (03:19)

    Yeah,

    yeah. so I was God. I mean, it's like it seems like yesterday and it's almost 10 and a half years ago. I so I got sober at June 2013. So when I started the business, I had what is that math two and a half years Sober?

    So, um, I was sort of like at this, I think I was 27 and I was working as a nanny. And before that, I had been working as a superintendent, taking care of buildings in the East village. And I, you know, I felt that like 27, I like, I'm 38 now and I'm like, God, like 27 so young, but at the time it felt like so old to enter like the job marketplace with virtually like no experience other than like, you know, uh,

    like service industry jobs that were sort of like cobbled together. And like, obviously like from college to when I got sober at 25, there was like a four year gap of like nothing. And then it was like on my resume, was like superintendent nanny, like it just felt and it felt, it felt really daunting. And I started getting this, like I'd been sober for two and a half years. Like I sort of had my life like together, but I was like, what does the rest of my life look like?

    Jill Griffin (04:07)

    you you

    Molly Bierman (04:08)

    Sure.

    Janie Deegan (04:32)

    And I reached this point of like, and I'm

    not a depressive person. I'm like ridden by anxiety and always have been, but like, I'm not, like, I'm not naturally inclined towards like a depressive state. And I just like found myself like constantly being in this like hopeless state, which to me was like such a, it was so like alarming because number one, that's not like, I'm usually so full of hope. And number two, that was something that I'd like felt pre, you know, getting sober. And so.

    it felt like this sort of like crossroads and kind of dangerous place to be. And I had baked a lot in early sobriety just to, or in the years before that, I had baked a lot because it was just like, felt like a way to connect to people. And it felt like a way to, had nothing, I felt like I had nothing to bring to the table and food is such like a, you know, we all worldwide like sit around the table and ⁓ form connections. And so,

    Jill Griffin (05:07)

    So.

    Janie Deegan (05:22)

    I had sort of used it as this like people pleasing type thing,

    Jill Griffin (05:25)

    you

    you

    Janie Deegan (05:25)

    but also as a way to connect when I felt like too full of shame or too whatever. And this was also like such a artistic outlet. And a friend of mine sort of like knew that I was, I had run into her on the street maybe a month or two before and was like, and I'm not a crier, like I never cry even now. And she had never seen me cry. And I would like burst into tears because that.

    family that I was nannying for had just told me their daughter was going to preschool early. And like she was my like little baby soulmate. And I was like, what now? But like, I can't even like stay as a nanny, like hanging on to like, I'm only a nanny because like, I love this little girl so much. So I was just like, in this like state of like, what's next. And a friend of mine was having like a big event. And she's like obsessed with sweets and

    She like cornered me in a bathroom somewhere and was like, you know, I'm having this big party and I can't think of anywhere I'd rather have a cake from than from you. And like, I'd love to purchase a cake from you. And so it was like this odd, like, what do you mean? Like, you want to purchase a cake from me? Like I had never, I had never thought of myself as an entrepreneur or a business woman. Anytime someone was like, you know, you should open a bakery. I was like, that's insane. What are you talking about?

    Molly Bierman (06:42)

    you

    Janie Deegan (06:43)

    And so like her sort of like planting the seed and being like I love your stuff so much I have so much faith in you like here's like money to prove that was yeah, yeah, which is such a you know, that's support right,

    Jill Griffin (06:45)

    Thank you. Thank you.

    Molly Bierman (06:52)

    Funny. Yeah.

    Jill Griffin (06:59)

    I just

    to this whole podcast about basically hope. And when you were just telling that story, I got chills because I really think that there are those moments where we lack purpose and we're not tethered to something that kind of forces us to take a leap of faith without having the hard time or the nothing, without being stripped of everything. And I look back at my story, Molly's story,

    Sometimes we won't take the leap of faith because we have something else to fall back on. Right? So it's like, I wonder how much that played into it because it's like, on paper, it doesn't look like, I'm going to go start a bakery have these successful, you're about to open up your fourth location like on paper, but it starts with like this little seed that's planted. And all of a sudden, I don't know, like how did you feel after that? Like, did you feel?

    like purpose again and hope again come back from that moment.

    Janie Deegan (07:53)

    Yeah, I mean, I think it was so much of what you just said. like now I don't even remember what I want to say, but that, yeah, so beautifully said. I think for me it was this, yeah, it was this like plant, like this little seed that like now I could water or not. Right. And it was right before Thanksgiving. And I remember being like, okay, this feels big, but I don't quite know why, because this wasn't like anything that I had dreamed of or imagined like beyond your wildest dreams. Right. Like I, it just wasn't something like I hadn't.

    Like I'm so anxious that I'm thinking of a thousand things that could happen, but like this was not one of them. And Thanksgiving was right around then and I always like loved to make like creative twists on pies. And so I remember turning to my boyfriend at the time and being like, is it absolutely crazy if in the wake of this, like the success of this cake, if I like try to sell pies for Thanksgiving. And I sort of like, the way I worded it was so like negative, like giving him every reason to say like that.

    crazy, you're a nanny, like, what are you talking about? You know, we live in a little tiny Washington Heights apartment, like, where would you do it? Like, I get comfort of like every reason, you know, and because like my, you know, my, my most like familiar state is fear. And he was like, no, like, that sounds great. And so it was like this sort of like her having that, you know, her having that faith gave me that little like you said, like,

    Jill Griffin (08:53)

    So, thank I'm a minutes to get back

    Janie Deegan (09:11)

    planted the seed of hope and then it was like, okay, what, you where can I take this? Can I take this somewhere? I did, which is great.

    Molly Bierman (09:18)

    It's incredible. mean,

    I think a lot of times, yeah.

    Jill Griffin (09:20)

    It's like your purpose, not what you were meant

    to do. I mean, sometimes we can't think of that ourselves.

    Janie Deegan (09:24)

    you

    No, and that's what's so wild is it really like it's I mean, I can't imagine, you know, whatever, like, I just can't even imagine not doing this. And even in it's hard, right? It's not it's not an easy life. And but I just like, during the hardest times, like I always am like, but what else like what else would fulfill me like this? Like, what else is like for me? Like, where else could I connect like this? Where else could I get service like And so it's

    Jill Griffin (09:42)

    Yes.

    Molly Bierman (09:49)

    I

    feel like that's such an important piece of it, because I also have come to a crossroads when I've felt either burnt out or tired or feeling like, how am going to continue to work in a community of people that sometimes aren't the healthiest and also helping our clients and families who are essentially not the healthiest? Like, how do I withstand and kind of gain my center? And I really feel like there's a lot of overlap.

    Jill Griffin (09:52)

    thank

    Molly Bierman (10:18)

    in customer service too. Because I also worked in the service industry and it's like, you're out there trying to basically please the customer, right? And sometimes the toxicity that comes back from that can be really overwhelming and defeating, you know? I'm sure now I couldn't even imagine being in that space like with the, you know, people who have access to like Google reviews, Yelp reviews.

    you know, videoing you while you're putting the cookies in the bag. Like, there's just so much exposure now, especially with, you know, digital and social media. But what I was thinking about when you were talking about that is how did your, you know, purpose is one thing, passion is one thing, and I

    Janie Deegan (10:47)

    Yeah.

    Jill Griffin (10:52)

    I'm

    Molly Bierman (11:02)

    feel like you obviously have found your niche. So even on those face down moments, just like me, it's like, okay, but.

    what else would I do? I mean, there's been multiple times where I've called Jill and I've called other friends and been like, I'm just gonna go be a real estate agent. Like I feel like I could do that. I feel like I wouldn't have to deal with so much of the headache. I've also thought about doing design. I've thought about doing all sorts of crazy things. And then what I realized is that, okay, maybe my internal barometer is looking to shift in some other way, not necessarily change my whole career trajectory, but it might mean that I just need to make a subtle shift in, you

    Jill Griffin (11:17)

    Yeah, peace out.

    you

    Molly Bierman (11:37)

    variety of ways. But when you think about your resilience that you gained being in a place of such desperation and vulnerability through your what was kind of the turning point? Like,

    Jill Griffin (11:39)

    you

    Janie Deegan (11:39)

    Yeah.

    Molly Bierman (11:50)

    where did move from being an acceptable lifestyle?

    to then stepping into your power and your recovery. Like what was that transition like and how has that shown up in business too? That skillset.

    Jill Griffin (11:59)

    thank Thank you.

    Janie Deegan (12:04)

    Yeah. So, okay. So we're talking like pre getting sober into, yeah. What's so funny just to backtrack is that I literally during that time that we just talked

    Molly Bierman (12:08)

    Freeze over. Yeah.

    Janie Deegan (12:14)

    about, I literally like started to get my real estate license. Cause I was like, I don't know what else to do. It's like I could maybe make money of this. ⁓ But like, like it didn't, I mean, that's what's crazy is that like I started to do that and it just like, I couldn't even, I was too busy even to take the, finish the

    Jill Griffin (12:14)

    You

    Molly Bierman (12:19)

    Yes!

    Yes, that's hilarious.

    Janie Deegan (12:32)

    I, think I

    Jill Griffin (12:41)

    Thank

    Janie Deegan (12:34)

    sort of had the understanding that I might use and drink differently than other people from like, I don't want to say like too young an age, but like ⁓ from like a young enough age where it was like, the way I'm doing this doesn't feel

    good. And like there's consequences, but I don't even know what the consequences are because like I don't, like I was like a blackout drinker and drinking always led to drugs and there were separate drugs and all that. But

    it was, you know, like I sort of like had the logical like feeling that like, okay, this, this like, if I don't remember what happened last night, I think people are mad at me. Like, why do I do this? Like, there was all this logic, right? And then at some point, when it got worse, it was like clear to everybody in my life that like, I wasn't able to like do this safely or in any sort of way, like physically, mentally, spiritually.

    And so I think I first started the journey into not, it wasn't even a journey of recovery or sobriety. It was a journey of maybe not drinking and drugging just for a period of time. And then that didn't work for me. And so it just got worse and worse. So from 22 to 25, I was basically,

    Jill Griffin (13:43)

    you

    Janie Deegan (13:52)

    in and out of like inpatient, outpatient, then eventually the last almost year of my, of my journey was homeless and, ⁓

    Molly Bierman (13:54)

    Mm-hmm.

    Janie Deegan (14:01)

    And so knew that I had to stop. knew that stopping wasn't just enough because I'd had dry periods where I was like more miserable

    than when I was on using but something just like couldn't click. I would go to rehab and be like, my God, best 30 days of my life. And then be like drinking on the plane on the way home and, you know, stealing prescription drugs from like people I worked for.

    Molly Bierman (14:09)

    Right.

    So.

    Janie Deegan (14:23)

    And so it just like, you know, like it just couldn't click. for me, what's so interesting when I think about that last year of like where it like where I was homeless and where, you know, I just like, it just got so bad. Like it doesn't even like when we talk about bottoms, like that doesn't even really feel like my bottom because like I had been in this state for so long and it's like. ⁓

    Jill Griffin (14:31)

    Thank you.

    Thank you.

    Janie Deegan (14:45)

    And nothing really got worse over that year. It was just like the same thing, like every day and the same like fear every day and the same being like, I don't know where I'm gonna end up tonight. And so I love that like sort of like moment of

    grace where people are that like click and it's like, it's so hard to pinpoint. just, for me, here's what it was, is that I...

    I had been like lying to everyone and I didn't have anybody in my life, but like the two or three people I did have in my life. Like I was just like completely lying to about like everything. And it got to the point where it was like, they just knew I was lying. Cause there was no way I had like an apartment somewhere on a job. if I couldn't, you know, if I was showing up in the same, whatever. But I just was completely honest with one person about circumstances that he like,

    Molly Bierman (15:10)

    Yeah.

    you

    Jill Griffin (15:25)

    you

    Janie Deegan (15:30)

    didn't know the details of it, but probably had begun to like glean that like whatever circumstances I had told him weren't true. and he was like, okay, like what's next. Um,

    but I think like over that two months, like there were a couple of people I encountered where I just like completely told the like on a bridge truth to like, I'm living in a three quarter house in the Bronx. I can't stay sober. Like there's rats, rats,

    you know, running around in the bunk beds or whatever, like that type of thing. which, know, for me was like, as someone who had just like been so afraid of the truth.

    And not even because like I was afraid of the consequences. I was just afraid that that would mean that you would think differently of me.

    Molly Bierman (15:58)

    Yeah.

    Janie Deegan (16:04)

    ⁓ and that just like, wasn't what happened. found that like people were willing to accept me for where I was and be like, okay, like this doesn't have to be, ⁓ who you are. And so it if I look back over the three years before that, I'm sure there were like thousands of people who were willing to meet me there or had met me there, but I just wasn't willing to like, accept it. I get chills thinking about that. And then all of a sudden for whatever reason I was,

    I was able to meet them, not even like halfway, like I was able to meet them like one step. They took 99 steps. I was

    Molly Bierman (16:33)

    remember explicitly thinking about those moments where people showed up when you weren't willing. I remember explicitly a mutual friend of actually Jill and I's who her and her husband were at a gas station where I was and I was in bad shape. mean, just ripping and running.

    Jill Griffin (16:46)

    you. Thank

    Molly Bierman (16:51)

    And I asked them for money because obviously that's what I always needed. And they said something along the lines

    of, you know, we love you. We can't give you money, but we'll help you in any other way that we can. And I was just like, I'm not ready yet. And the look.

    Jill Griffin (16:58)

    Maybe later.

    Janie Deegan (17:03)

    and

    But what I really

    need is money.

    Molly Bierman (17:09)

    Right, but and then they came back like, you know, however long later after I ended up getting sober and they told me that story. I was actually at their wedding too, very early in recovery. And I remember, you know, just feeling like I can't believe what it feels like to be on their side. Right. And I don't know if I've had like, I've definitely had that experience in my recovery now being on the side of like trying to help somebody like me.

    Jill Griffin (17:22)

    you

    you

    Molly Bierman (17:38)

    I don't know, it was just like a little bit of a different time. I feel like in my life that I was exposed to different, just different paths. And so when you speak about even the, even the discussion around, wasn't

    anything like a major event. Like I can so relate and identify with that. Cause it was just like a normal Tuesday. Like it was dirty and

    gross and, not taking care of myself and fully physically dependent on substances and alcohol. And it didn't seem like anything out of the ordinary other than I woke up and maybe had. And this is what I will tell people that I think is so impactful. that you only need

    Jill Griffin (18:15)

    you

    Molly Bierman (18:19)

    to want to live differently 1 % more than what you want to keep doing, right? It only has to be this subtle shift. And I literally woke up and I

    think that day I like 51 % of me wanted to get sober and 49 % of me wanted to keep ripping and running, right? In the way that I was. And so the margins were tight, okay? And there was a lot of question around whether or not I was actually gonna stick with it.

    Jill Griffin (18:30)

    Okay. you

    Molly Bierman (18:48)

    But I think the resilience that that builds and being able to take a risk in the way that you have in your business, in your life, I'm sure in so many different areas.

    Yeah, you learned that through grit and being in a three quarter house with rats running around. I mean, that's the reality.

    Jill Griffin (19:04)

    Yeah. mean,

    yeah. I mean, the insanity of living, homeless. I mean, that was my experience at the end too, where, you know, I share all the time. I told the lie that I got kicked out of my house. No, I, I chose not to go to treatment. I chose to go test it out on the streets and that lasted for a significant amount of time. And

    Molly Bierman (19:18)

    I to leave.

    Jill Griffin (19:27)

    when you were talking, I was like, we are actually insane because we weren't concerned about the rats or like that our behaviors led to us literally not knowing where we're sleeping and sometimes sleeping outside. We're more concerned about what you think of us. Clearly not not you're not thinking well of us because we look like a hot mess, but somehow we're still trying to keep some, some semblance of dignity, not knowing it's just like

    Janie Deegan (19:48)

    How crazy.

    Jill Griffin (19:54)

    that mirror was never held up of like, cause there were times when I was out there, I am in my bag. I look good. Like that's what I'm thinking. That's the insanity, right? Like when really other people are like, are you okay? You don't look okay. Cause I wasn't, we weren't, we were not okay. But one thing I'm thinking, you know, cause I've had my own journey with this is how

    Janie Deegan (20:16)

    Yeah.

    Jill Griffin (20:22)

    You you open these bakeries, now you're on this like, you went on like national TV, you're featured in, you know, on the Today Show and Good Morning America, and you've like been in the media spotlight to some degree, sharing your story. And I wonder at what point did you ever have that moment of like, am I actually gonna share that I was like a drug addict homeless? Because we all don't look like that's the life we lived once.

    once upon a time. That's the reality, right? Like the lives we lived are very different than the ones we live now.

    Janie Deegan (20:50)

    in

    Yeah, I mean, just to go back. Yeah, just to I just have to comment on what you said about you looking amazing on the street is that I remember one night going home from or leaving the hospital against medical advice. Like I had somehow like been picked up in the hospital. I was like, of course, and it was in my neighborhood that I grew up in. I'm like, who saw me? Right? I like tear out the IVs because that was my mo leave like against medical advice.

    Jill Griffin (20:56)

    Was there fear there, like sharing that?

    Janie Deegan (21:21)

    go to the bar across the street being like, okay, like don't have a wallet, I don't have money, like someone will buy me a drink because I'm 25 and I'm cute, you know? And like nobody would buy me a drink because like I was 25 and I was not like, you know, whatever my image of myself was, was like clearly like, I'm like, nobody will buy like it's 3 a.m. like in a seedy area of New York City and like nobody's gonna.

    Jill Griffin (21:27)

    You have like bandages.

    Janie Deegan (21:43)

    Yeah, like who probably

    like an IV in my arm like probably wearing like I don't know hospital like who knows but I just remember being like what do you like nobody will buy me a drink like what are you talking about? This is like not how this works

    Janie (21:56)

    the first two years, like when I started the business, I was still working as a nanny part time. and I really like hit the ground running because I was like, okay, I have no capital. I didn't go to business school. I barely graduated college. I didn't go to culinary school, like whatever my idea and the entrepreneur, the word entrepreneur I kept hearing and like literally had to look the word up. Cause I was like, I don't know what that means. And like, I just always associated that with like rich tech people, ⁓ like tech bros or something. And so.

    Jill Griffin (22:14)

    Thank you. Thank you.

    Janie (22:21)

    Like I, you know, heard all these keywords and then was like, okay, what is, what does this mean for me? And so I really, like pounded the pavement in New York city. It's actually like, it's a horrible place to grow a small business and also an amazing place to grow a small business because we still have so many mom and pop businesses.

    And I remember around that time, which was also like such an implement tool and me like making the decision to even like start to sell pies or a cake or whatever.

    was that ⁓ a friend of mine told me she had this motto where she asked her, if she's unwilling to do something, she asks herself, is it because she's afraid of doing it? And if it's like, a physical fear, if it's like, I don't wanna go skydiving because of whatever, like fine. But if it's like a fear that's sort of vague or just like, I'm afraid of this, she makes herself do it anyway. I still get chills when I think about that because like,

    it hit so hard because I had thought what are all the things like I'm 27, like what are all the things that I haven't done in life? because I've

    just been a too afraid to, like ask for this recommendation for college, like ask for like, you know, submit a resume somewhere, like all these things that are like little and big that I just like had deprived myself of even having the chance to like dream about because I was too afraid to take that small step. And so I sort of enveloped, like that was like my mantra.

    Jill Griffin (23:19)

    you you

    Janie (23:38)

    was like, am I not doing this because I'm afraid? And if so, like, do it anyway.

    and then so you take that, right? And then you also take the fact that I have no money. I'm a nanny. I want to start a business like I don't have any sort of degrees And I have no knowledge of any of this and really no work experience. So so what does that mean for me?

    And I think about two years in, was like, was, I just had, like, I hadn't done like amazingly, but like, it was like, okay, like I'm making like a livable wage doing this. Like I might need to stop nannying. Like I'm, you know, baking all day, babysitting at night, going home and baking overnight. like it's not making enough money, but like maybe it could. And I just was like too afraid to sort of like

    not have a side hustle. And I was applying for this grant

    called the Stacey's Rise Project. And it came with like a culinary entrepreneurship scholarship to this. It was probably like an $8,000 scholarship to this like intensive culinary entrepreneurship program at like one of the top culinary schools in New York City. So it wasn't culinary skills related, but it was like all about, you know, focused about entrepreneurship.

    Jill Griffin (24:36)

    Thank

    Janie (24:42)

    And then it also came with a grant, which was, think, $3,000, which seemed like so much money for me at the time.

    ⁓

    And so the question to get you to help you, like the essay question, right, for this grant and scholarship was like, what's a huge challenge you've overcome in your life? Something like that. I don't remember the exact question. And, you know, I was like,

    Jill Griffin (24:56)

    you

    Janie (25:04)

    it was 2017, so I was almost four years sober at the time, or I just gotten four years sober. And it was like, I was thinking of everything, like, oh, I have an autoimmune disorder. Like, here's how I've like gotten through that. Like, oh, I'm training for my first marathon. Like it was like,

    Jill Griffin (25:05)

    you

    Janie (25:18)

    every like I was like, what's what's something big I've overcome in life? Like, I can't figure it out.

    and it just didn't even occur to me to talk about like resilience I was like, that's unacceptable. I can't talk about that.

    And then at some point when I was really, I'd probably spent days agonizing over what to write in this essay. And I was like, why don't I just talk about my path from homeless to starting a business out of my home and having a home, right? And it's one of those things, we talk about it, or I talk about it all the time. I wish that I could put getting sober on a resume because it's the best thing I've ever done, the hardest thing I've ever done.

    And I wrote about it and I submitted the essay and I went back and forth, which is again, one of these states that I'm always in of like, I'm like, this is amazing. I did such a good job to being like, I'm the worst person in the world.

    I should be ashamed, like, you know, what are they gonna think of me? And I didn't hear anything. And like, they were supposed to announce by like something like August 5th, like who had won these five scholarships. And, you know, was August 20th. And I like went into that state of like, I suck. Like, I'm like, I should never mention this again. Like, this is like such a detraction from like who I am as a person. Like, I'm not even, they didn't even reach out to me to tell me I didn't get it because it's like so disgusting that I talked about that.

    And I received, was on a vacation with my boyfriend and I received a call from a random number and it was the scholarship people and they were like, we're so sorry it took, and I like, again, want to cry thinking about this. They were just like, we're so sorry it took so long to reply. We had thousands and thousands of applicants and we didn't expect that. And you were chosen as one of the five and we're so excited to have you.

    And it was like this moment of acceptance, right? I took my shame and I put it into growth and ⁓ fear is now hope. And so I, know, at that time, like I was in this, you know,

    Jill Griffin (27:08)

    So,

    Janie (27:11)

    culinary program or this entrepreneurship program and got this measly $3,000, which to me now I'm like, I don't know, what do you do with $3,000? But in terms of business growth, there's not much I can do at this state, but at that state it was enough

    to be like, okay, I'm gonna stop taking on babysitting and nannying side gigs for a period of three months and really apply myself to this. And I never went back. I just never went back. And during that, so.

    this such a long winded answer to a short question, But during that there was a you know, another moment like just like that, where it was like my inability and resistance to like being my true self was getting in the way. And it was like, you know, this person who was ⁓

    a brand expert in the culinary industry had come in to give a full day lesson on building brand story and building brand. And again, the idea of what is a brand? didn't even know what a brand was and that maybe, okay, so I sell cakes and I make cookies. Isn't that the brand? ⁓ And so learning

    I could be part of the brand story. And again, it was sort of like at the end of this day long thing, it was like, ⁓ I recovered from an autoimmune disorder. Like I'm like running the marathon, blah, blah, blah. And like, it just didn't even occur to put that into the whole branding story. And by like week six or seven when it came time to do this presentation.

    sort of this final presentation of like, here's what I've built, like here's what I'm like trying to put into the world. And I brought this pie crust cookie, which I had invented and I like, we had to present a business plan and I like just had no numbers and

    was, know, like, I just didn't, like, I didn't do a good, it's not like I didn't do a good job, but I was like, all this like projections, like that makes no sense to me.

    And it was this panel of like top people in the culinary industry who were just like, you know, behind huge brands, behind huge chefs, you know, top like, you know, really big like names in the food industry. And

    I just gave out this cookie and I had this thought maybe the day before that maybe I should talk about where I had been and why I started, like the why, right? The why behind the business, which was that it brought me joy and I had no idea what I was doing with my life and this was this meditative, active self-care. And I just presented that, so embarrassed, but just like, I'm gonna look you in the eye and do it anyway. And the reception was astounding. It was like, I had none of the things I was supposed to have.

    Jill Griffin (29:34)

    Okay.

    Janie (29:38)

    And I probably got the best feedback of anybody in the class because they saw an entrepreneur and a brand and a person who wanted to succeed, not just a person who was able to put numbers on paper that showed success. And that was, this turning moment for me of, wait, I, you know, and I think someone was like, even if that story's not too true, you should tell it, which of course it's true, right?

    Jill Griffin (29:39)

    Okay.

    Janie (30:01)

    And that's the most amazing thing.

    Right before that, I had been in another similar class and had really struggled during a presentation. And I remember the person who's now a mentor now had turned to me and been like, great job. You really know your facts. But I want to remind you that you know this business better than anyone else. All you have to do is tell the truth.

    And that's something that I had heard over and over again was all I have to do is tell the truth, about fill in the blanks, right? All I have to do is tell the truth and that allows me to be my authentic self and that allows you maybe to connect with me. And that is a huge asset in building a business, which again was such a shocker to me. And so from there, it was uncomfortable. Every time, like I said, I was a homeless addict and that's how I started the business. It was really uncomfortable and there were different sort of like,

    Jill Griffin (30:30)

    Thank you.

    Janie (30:50)

    There were ways where I like dipped my toe into it more and more and sort of like, and again, got

    this validation that that's such a beautiful story and you're doing a great job. And even if people were like a little condescending, like good job, sweetie, like I'm so proud of you. Like it still was validation in its own right. And so it's one thing where it's like still, you sometimes when I'm on like a big, like, you know, when I'm on something like the Today Show, like.

    Molly Bierman (31:06)

    Sure.

    Janie (31:13)

    There is a moment where it feels uncomfortable before I do it, but I think about how it's allowed me country and worldwide to connect with people about not just entrepreneurship and not just recovery, but just growth in general and how we can go from not being able to look in the mirror to standing in front and being like, overcame this really hard thing and my life is beautiful today.

    Jill Griffin (31:38)

    Well, your story is like textbook of what I know I tell clients because I can remember I got sober when I was 24. So in your early 20s, you think your life is over if you are behind your peers. And I tell my clients all the time that like the reality is

    My experience living in this world and in this life is that, and this is the spiritual part of me, God's grace looks beyond what our talents on paper are. I just feel like we all have a God-given purpose here. And whether it's connection wrapped up in pie-crossed right? Or we're people facing and we're like,

    I'm providing a service of therapy, but it's like, really, it's like, I've heard the term like hope dealer, right? It's like, I'm providing hope that I could be an incarcerated homeless drug addict, right? And go on to graduate and get licensed and do all the things that on paper, people will say, it's gonna be really hard for you to do that. I don't think you're gonna be able to do that. And like the world will tell you, you can't, but.

    Janie (32:22)

    Thank

    Yeah.

    Thanks.

    Jill Griffin (32:44)

    I always,

    remember really early on in recovery, and this just actually came up for me in the past couple days, God opens doors no man can close. So like, I just feel like I hung on to that saying when I was newly sober, even though I had no idea how I was gonna get out of the hole that I was in. Like I was in a hole that everyone told me, you know, I was just trying to get a job at a bagel shop and I would have been fine with that, you know?

    Janie (32:53)

    No.

    Thanks.

    Jill Griffin (33:10)

    And it's like, if we stay stuck in that vision of what we think we deserve or we're worth or whatever, and that's where it's like, you you mentioned mentors, but it's like, we need people outside of us to kind of reflect back and hold up the mirror of like the possibility and the potential. Cause in those growth moments, and I see this in clients all the time, we can't see it for ourselves. We need somebody else. And so I wonder if you can talk a little bit about like the mentors in your life that especially,

    I know from a business perspective, there were so many things I didn't know. I'm a therapist. There are so many things I either self-learn or I had to ask a lot of questions to learn.

    Janie (33:45)

    Yeah, yeah. mean, like, I love this topic because it's like such an important thing and in so many ways, and I'll get into it in a variety of ways, like one big, like, through person is like the person who bought the first cake. And like, we're so different. Like, she's 65. She's a tiny blonde woman, like this tiny, gorgeous blonde woman who works like a corporate job. And I'm like me floating around, selling cookies. And we were having dinner with some friends the other night.

    And there was a new friend there. apparently before I got there, they had told my story. And the new person was like, can you talk a little bit more about it? And I just gave my briefing. And what my friend said was what she's leaving out is what a hustler she is and what a hard worker she is. And this person for the past 13 years has been someone that like.

    Jill Griffin (34:22)

    thank

    Janie (34:35)

    over and over again, like when I'm not getting validation from the classic people

    in my life, sort of has been this cheerleader. I remember her saying really early in building the business when I just wanted to quit all the time she reminded me of this during this dinner where she was like,

    remember when you would bake all night and show up in the rain somewhere all day and then go home and bake all night and do it again and not make any money. what she always said to me was sort of like the whole same, similar to God, God opens doors, no one man can shut, was she would always say God rewards effort, God rewards effort. And I'd be like, I don't know what that means, but I can feel that. And so I have people like that.

    right, who like, besides like offering this like actual practical advice are just like these like spiritual cheerleaders of mine who just are like, when I can't see it, like you said, like when I can't see the growth, when I can't see what a good job I'm doing, Like they're there to remind me like how far I've come, like what it used to be like.

    And like that, like the problems I had like two years ago, like I can look over my shoulder and be like that. I can't even remember when that was a problem. And the problems I'm having now are like so different than the ones I've had over the past 10 years. But then the big thing for me is, you know, so I built this business as like a sole entrepreneur, not knowing anything about like the food industry.

    and not understanding, because there was no way I could understand. It was like, just didn't have the education to understand this, but that the culinary industry is such a community in New York City, but really anywhere. It's like a worldwide community. The bakery next door doesn't have to be my competition. They can be friends. as long as we're not selling the exact same pie crust cookies, right? They're just not my competition. They're filling a different market.

    Molly Bierman (36:13)

    Mm-hmm.

    Janie (36:22)

    And I wasn't really able to like tap into that until I started taking all these classes. And what was amazing was that like, I would be in these free courses that were like run by, like the, like the Stacey's Petit Chips thing, like I was in so many other things like that. And there was like a specific one where it was like run by Columbia Business School and Whole Foods and like the SBS. and I like, you know, the education was great, right? Like you have these.

    Columbia like PhD professor is like, you know, lecturing you on building a business. But like what I realized at the end of this like summer of this, you know, intense course was like the best learning I got was from the people who were sitting next to me and that like the person who was like one step ahead of me had like far more information for me than the person who like had like three PhDs and like, you know, business, whatever.

    Jill Griffin (37:11)

    Totally.

    Janie (37:13)

    And that was like

    such a, and then like it took away this loneliness. sort of like in recovery, it's like someone speaks the same language as me. Someone is walking the same road as me. Someone is having the exact same struggles as me. And so I don't have to not only like not know the answer to something, but I can also like have like camaraderie and like, you know, cry with someone or like, you know, not really cry, but like just like, like, you know, like.

    Jill Griffin (37:36)

    Or sometimes really crying with people.

    Janie (37:37)

    or sometimes really cry. I'm like so resistant still at almost 13 years sober,

    so resistant to crying, it's wild.

    Molly Bierman (37:42)

    Hahaha!

    Jill Griffin (37:44)

    But like recovery taught us that. And I think that's the thread of, you know, we talk a lot about our industry of behavioral health care and like, you know, treating people with substance use disorders and mental health disorders and how community is so important. But I think, you know, the other thread of No Permission Necessary and this podcast is like really highlighting women entrepreneurs and the whole spirit of entrepreneurship and how really our recovery backgrounds has really taught us how to embrace

    Janie (37:46)

    Yeah.

    Jill Griffin (38:13)

    Like the camaraderie in on like, we don't all have to be seen as competition. And I think from a young age as girls and women, we are taught to compete with each other. We are not taught, we are not taught to, and I posted something the other day, like women supporting women, the best thing, you can't imagine what we can do if it's like women supporting women instead of being like in this competition, right? Because, and I think that's a beautiful thing because at end of the day, I don't know everything. I don't pretend to, and honestly, I don't want to.

    Molly Bierman (38:22)

    Yeah.

    Janie (38:22)

    Chris.

    Jill Griffin (38:42)

    because that blindsides me from all of the things that are left to still learn and implement in my life, right?

    Janie (38:49)

    It's like so wild because I think about like the people who are like in that community, especially early on, like where I was like literally growing a business next to them shoulder to shoulder. And I was working in a shared commercial kitchen where it was a culinary incubator. So it was like every business there was getting mentorship, low cost kitchen time, know, and connections to like places like Whole Foods, et cetera. And so we were growing businesses, like we were all in early stages. We all had promise. We're growing businesses shoulder to shoulder.

    And it was like the people who I've seen succeed were people who were like really like active in that community, right? And the people who I've seen really struggle are the people who were like, you know, for me, it's like, I'm an open book. Like I might not give you my client list and I might not like give you like, know,

    Jill Griffin (39:31)

    I'm

    Janie (39:32)

    Andy Cohen's like, you know, Booker's like number, right? But like, you know, I,

    Jill Griffin (39:33)

    you

    Janie (39:39)

    I'm an open book in terms of knowledge. There's specific things like packaging, right? It's really hard to source custom packaging. And I remember asking certain people who were one step ahead of me, like, hey, your packaging's beautiful. Not

    asking who's your designer, but being like, did you, what box company is making the boxes?

    Jill Griffin (39:52)

    Thank

    Janie (39:58)

    and people just like refusing to give that information or ignoring the message or whatever.

    Molly Bierman (40:03)

    is something that is so prevalent in our space too. And I remember when started what I, know, the business that I'm a part of now with my two partners and I started, you know, just inquiring with a couple people. I had been out of the concierge space for like a good fraction of time, you know, probably at least seven years. And so I just wanted to know a little bit more about the space.

    Jill Griffin (40:06)

    Yes.

    Okay.

    Molly Bierman (40:29)

    the market, understanding a little bit more about infrastructure operations. Like I had built a business that was very much in a different wheelhouse, right? Insurance was a factor. full-time employees were a factor. Like this was something different. This was using, you know, a 10 99 model versus a full-time W two employee model, right? Just like all different types of, avenues to kind of build the business and

    I probably reached out to maybe like four to six, like close colleagues, right? And I will tell you that the one person that ended up helping me was actually somebody who didn't really know me.

    who was willing to open her operations to me and give me feedback and suggestions. And the people that didn't, forever remember that. I'm just gonna say that. I mean, because...

    Jill Griffin (41:21)

    But people are friends.

    Janie (41:22)

    Yeah

    Jill Griffin (41:23)

    The people that know you though, I will tell you when you were saying that it's like because they know

    that whatever you put out there is gonna be successful and they were threatened. And I think that goes back to the competition piece of like, I I always say it in our industry, there's enough sick people to go around. That's the reality. There just are. Just like there's enough people that like cookies, right? Whether it's yours or somebody else's. mean, there's just, so if we, I mean, if we keep, if we make, if we keep a scarcity mindset, we're just limiting our own connections. We're limiting.

    Janie (41:45)

    I have six people, I left that.

    Molly Bierman (41:52)

    That's what it is.

    Jill Griffin (41:55)

    always go back to what my husband says, be the great connector. Like if I have something that I can connect, the mayor, if I have something that I can connect you to or with, I will do that because people did that for me. And again, that's another recovery principle, right? I pass on what was given to me.

    Molly Bierman (41:59)

    The Mayor.

    Janie (42:09)

    Okay, yeah.

    Molly Bierman (42:11)

    That happened with

    Janie (42:11)

    Yeah.

    Molly Bierman (42:11)

    the podcast too. Like I had a friend and colleague and I was on his podcast and I said, we were at dinner one night and I said, we're starting a podcast and he goes, oh shit. He was like, it's gonna be successful because you're consistent and you don't let up. Like it's, you know, I'm so excited for you. And if there's anything you need or anything that you want to talk about, you know, I'm here. feel like let's raise people up.

    Jill Griffin (42:15)

    us.

    Janie (42:29)

    Yeah.

    Molly Bierman (42:39)

    You know, why are we gatekeeping weird information that really

    Jill Griffin (42:43)

    Weird!

    It's not!

    Janie (42:45)

    22 is like, even if you're the most selfish person, like networking and the theory behind networking is still basically the same as karma, right? It's like, even if you are so selfish and just in it for yourself, like the more you give, the more you're gonna get back, right? I had a like, again, one of these foremost experts in the world on networking, like give a class this whole lecture on like, it's, you know, think about in networking, you wanna think about what you can give to someone else, right? It's not about what you can get and that's how it works the best.

    Molly Bierman (42:54)

    Totally.

    Right.

    Jill Griffin (43:11)

    Yeah.

    Janie (43:12)

    And it's like, even if you're a fucking, sorry, even if you are like, just not a great person and like only consider yourself, like, that's just like, that's how it works. And so it's so mind boggling to me that like something as simple as like, hey, like, tell me about like 1099 employees and like, how much do you pay? Like, this is not private information.

    Jill Griffin (43:23)

    Yeah.

    Janie (43:32)

    Like I'll even tell someone who's starting like a bakery like what I made in the first year. Like this is not private information. Sure it could be private, but it's not like, it's not proprietary. Like it's not something I came up with on my own. It's not like, I'm not gonna.

    Molly Bierman (43:37)

    Right, right.

    It's not like you're giving them the ingredients to your cookie.

    Janie (43:47)

    No, no. And I'm

    like, and then even if you're the most selfish, totally, exactly. I'm like a cookie's a cookie. Like a sick person's a sick person. And like even like, you know, like I think about how many people including that person, that person who wouldn't give me their box manufacturer came back to me years later and asked me for mine. And in a heartbeat, I was like, here's Larry's number. Like he's the best, right? And it's like,

    Molly Bierman (43:50)

    And short of that, I'm not sure there's much to geek-keep, honestly.

    Jill Griffin (44:02)

    you

    you you

    Molly Bierman (44:09)

    Well...

    Janie (44:12)

    I have an amazing relationship with Larry and like I'm always gonna like get like amazing like, you amazing service, right? Larry actually got promoted and so he's no longer my packaging wrap, which is devastating. either way, it's like.

    Molly Bierman (44:17)

    The

    Janie (44:25)

    So I have an amazing relationship with Larry. Larry's always gonna go above and beyond because I continuously recommend new clients to him. And it's like, so even if you're the most

    Molly Bierman (44:30)

    Great.

    Janie (44:34)

    selfish person, like don't you want your like reps to like love you by like continuously bringing them new business? Like don't you want them to succeed? Don't you want them to bring packaging down?

    Molly Bierman (44:43)

    We could talk about this for hours because I'll say this one last thing on this topic is that I had actually really wanted to source some 1099s. And again, these are not proprietary individuals. They don't only work for you. And if they do only work for you, then they should be W2 employee. But I wanted to get connected to a couple of people.

    Janie (44:46)

    Yeah.

    Yep. Okay.

    Molly Bierman (45:08)

    And in my mind, I was like, don't you want to feed their family? Like, if I'm interested in working with someone, don't you want to help feed their family? I mean, that's really the question you have to ask yourself. And if your honest answer is no, that's who you are as a person. It's crazy.

    Janie (45:24)

    That's crazy. Yeah. And like, don't

    you want to feed their family? Don't you want them to want to stay in this industry? Like, don't you want them to succeed? Don't you want them to get more knowledge by working more in the industry? Like, it is absolutely wild. But yes, like that at the very base, like, don't you want to feed their family? Like that's...

    Jill Griffin (45:30)

    Yes.

    Molly Bierman (45:31)

    Right.

    Yes. Yes. Yes.

    Janie (45:43)

    I

    Molly Bierman (45:43)

    So when you talk about

    You're in your growth era and have been essentially since you opened the business and remarkable. I mean, not only you went from one to two, two to three, three to you're on your fourth location due to open up this spring. Tell us what do you feel is different about this store? Do you feel like you're entering a new phase of the business? What does it look like? What can people expect, anticipate?

    kind of where are things with your bakeries at this, you know, present day.

    Janie (46:14)

    Yeah, I mean, it's so interesting because so Do you guys remember when Starbucks was like a community like coffee shop? Do you like I remember there was a Starbucks on my corner? Yeah.

    Molly Bierman (46:21)

    Yeah, yes. I worked at Starbucks, So

    circa 2000 and...

    five or six, six-ish.

    Janie (46:30)

    Yeah, like I remember

    my mom introducing me to, I'm not even going to get into it. I started going to Starbucks like 2000, there was one on my corner. had couches. Like it was like the whole community was there. It was a lounge, right? And I remember and it's like, it was like central perk, you know, and ⁓

    Molly Bierman (46:39)

    Yeah, it was a lounge.

    Janie (46:48)

    I remember being like, I would love to one day, like when I'm wealthy, when I'm an Oscar winning director and writer, like I would love to own like a coffee shop like this. sort of, and it was before I even had the vocabulary of like community. And, but I just remember like, was like this place where my friends and I, when we were like 12 or 13 could feel like we were cool and, you know, just like have a place that wasn't our homes or the park or whatever school to like be, be adults. Right.

    But so, so even like pre like this might be a career. I was like, Oh, it would be really cool to own a restaurant or a coffee shop or cafe one day, just so I can build this like, you know, space in my community.

    And like as we've like developed as a, I don't know, society, like we've become more and more corporatized and, you know, where I live on the Upper West Side, there were a period of 10 or 15 years where like every mom and pop type thing went away. And I'm really lucky in that here, they've, not they, but like new ones have come back and like the Chipotle's are going away now and these new places are coming back. And that's like so beautiful to see.

    But ⁓ when I got into this business, actually, I was like, there's no way I'm ever opening a brick and mortar. There's so many, there's just all the, and sort of that's the mentorship I got too, was that it's not an easy life. You are putting out fires, metaphorical, physical, literal all day, right? Like all day, and that's what I call myself now. People are like, what's your day like? And I'm like, I'm a firefighter. Whatever my day is planned, it's like I fixed this one's toilet. I fixed this person's whatever.

    Molly Bierman (48:04)

    Yes.

    Janie (48:15)

    And so like I had no intention and up until COVID I was going completely towards wholesale. Like I had invented this product, the pie crust cookie. Like I had one chopped at that point ⁓ for basically making this pie crust cookie. And I'd gotten like, you know, some press around like not only my story, but like the innovation of this cookie. And

    before we went into lockdown, had, know, I was supposed to open in 24 Whole Foods and, you know, be on Fresh Direct, which I don't know, you guys, you have Fresh Direct in Connecticut. Yeah. So like Launching Fresh Direct and Launching Balducis and Kings, which I don't think exists anymore. I think it went bankrupt during COVID. I love, I think Balducis got bought, but like Balducis was like, oh my God, like it's like being put in Dean and DeLuca for me. Like it was like so exciting. And so I...

    Molly Bierman (48:43)

    Yeah, we have fresh draft. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    I loved Valdez cheese as a kid.

    Back in the day. Yeah, totally. So good.

    Janie (49:00)

    had all these like amazing like dream like upcoming contracts and then COVID hit and a couple of things happened. Like number one, like it was obviously like whatever my original source of income was, which was street fairs, custom cakes. I had like this huge neighborhood connection. I became sort of like the cake lady of the Upper West Side, like making these Dora the Explorer cakes for like, you know, wealthy families and charging not what I should, but like.

    way more than I was comfortable charging for these cakes. And so was like, that was sort of like my income. And then the dream was like, continue building this like consumer packaged goods wholesale product and like, let's get it national.

    COVID hit and was like, I'm still and consumer packaged goods went like off, like it just exploded, right? Like all of a sudden there's such a huge market for like gourmet products. Nobody's going out. Like Levene hit like Whole Foods and other like Milk Bar hit. Like that's around when all these like sort of like once bakeries, hospitality brands like became like national in terms of like everybody can get them at any supermarket. And so it was like great timing.

    Molly Bierman (49:47)

    I'm sure.

    Janie (50:06)

    but also bad timing because I didn't have this other source of income. And then what happened was that all of a sudden these people, I like, this is like one of these moments for me where I'm like, holy crap, like I am like so supported and so ingrained in the community is that I had been doing these like sort of like really big street fair type things where like one of them was this place called Queen's Night Market, which was like completely about like uplifting small businesses and 20,000 people would come every night, every Saturday night in the summer.

    And it was really about like, let's support small businesses. And so many businesses got their sort of start there. And I really can credit my business growth and success to them sort of allowing me to sell there and all the connections I made there in terms of customers and market research as well. Just being able to spend time because I was working out of shared commercial kitchen. I was selling one-off cakes. I wasn't having these in-depth interactions. And here I'm making,

    you know, 300 interactions every night with 300 people who are like new to the brand or now coming back. And so it was like this interesting, like, wow, I've never done this. And now like, I'm selling like, it's like one on one, right. And people are really interested not only in the cookie, but in me. And so COVID hits and I'm like, I have no source of income. Like I have two part-time employees. Do I furlough them? Like,

    what's unemployment like? Is that the best thing for me to shut down? There's this great COVID unemployment. It's more money than I make, right? Like was like at the time, was like whatever $600 a week plus $300 or whatever was more money than I was making. And like that was like the easier, softer way. And what ended up, and I really didn't know what to do. Like I didn't have access to the commercial kitchen. It was like, again, there was so many things about like, how long will this last? And...

    And like, will I be able to grow this business And what ended up happening was that I started getting emails from like, I really, now I'm gonna cry thinking about it. People started emailing me and being like, we know that this is a hard time for small businesses like yours. Can I buy cookies to send to myself and my sister? Like, hey, I own a company. We met at Queen's Night Market. have.

    hundred employees around the country, like, can you send them and their family cookies? And it's just like,

    Molly Bierman (52:13)

    Wow.

    Janie (52:16)

    this moment where I was like, people are thinking about me for no reason. Like people are thinking about other people. Like they're not, they're thinking like I'm healthy and I'm supported right now. And like, how can I help support someone else? And I just got, I'm like, I'm cold right now, like all the chills. And so like, I started receiving like literally dozens of these emails and DMs on Instagram and people just being like, you know, and again, like I wasn't like, hey, need help. I'm a small business, like poor me, which would have been okay too, because that was the truth, right?

    And so I was like, I figure out how to ship cookies? We had kind of shipped cookies before, but it was annoying. And when one person is ordering cookies online every other week, it's really annoying, the logistics. But all of a sudden, this became a really clear, we can pivot. I'd heard the word pivot, pivot, pivot over and over again. And in the news, we were hearing pivot all day, every day. And so I was like, OK, so can I pivot?

    And so at that time it was like, again, it was like this slow sort of entry into like these one-on-one, like, okay, so now I met these people at a market, it's less personal, I'm shipping, like, how can I still like maintain that sort of like human contact? And so we started shipping all around the country and like business actually, like, I hate when I say this because it sounds so like predatory or something, but like my business like had these opportunities that it never had before during COVID, like completely solely because of.

    like the community built around me. And not from anything like I'm like, I'm not that special. I'm not that great. Like I think I'm a good person, but like I'm not the best. Right. so like I am sort of like getting sales and being able to grow this business from like just from people's love, you know, and people's hope for me. And, and then I launched in Whole Foods, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, okay, we're growing this business.

    Molly Bierman (53:40)

    Right.

    Janie (54:04)

    And it became like not sustainable to keep working out of a shared space. Like it was like costing more money now. We had limited access to kitchen space. And so, and I started like kind of missing those customer interactions and being like, well, we built like a large email list. Like, you know, we have people from around the country who are now customers. Like, you know, what would it look like? I need my own space. I need to like take the big girl steps and like.

    get a commercial lease in New York City. My only exposure to commercial leases had been like commercial kitchens that didn't have like, that weren't like walk-in restaurants. But so that was sort of like what I was thinking. But I started being like, maybe it has a window where people can walk up and buy cookies. And I got this, this like famous chef Andrew Zimmer and got ahold of my cookies somehow and like posted this beautiful post on Instagram and he's sober for a long time. I...

    I like at the time, like didn't really know much about him and like I hadn't sent him the cookies and he just like wrote this like beautiful post about the cookies, which like again, like gave me this, I looked back at the sales, cause if you had asked me the sales now, I would have been like $200,000, but it was like $40,000 in sales. But like that was kind of overnight and I had never seen that kind of cash in my bank account. then it was like people connecting with me on a...

    again, a really personal level. Like he sent me a message being like, you know, I'm so proud of your story, just a really beautiful message. And so the customers that he brought in were people who were so story focused, right. And so like human focused and like, obviously we have a good product that stands behind it. And so it was like, OK, we have a little bit of money. Like we're bursting at the seams in this commercial kitchen. don't like we're not we're we were only allowed because of social distancing in there one or two times a week.

    My employees need more Like what can we do? We're trying to fulfill Whole Foods order

    Molly Bierman (55:44)

    couldn't imagine.

    Jill Griffin (55:45)

    I can't

    even that that that term gives me trauma. I have trauma.

    Molly Bierman (55:48)

    What are

    Janie (55:48)

    Social distance, I know.

    Molly Bierman (55:48)

    you doing?

    Janie (55:51)

    It's such a weird time. Like now that I haven't thought about it in so long and now that I'm thinking about it, was like such a, it was like such an odd time. And I was honestly, I was so grateful at the time to be like not stuck in my apartment like every other New Yorker. Like I was like, thank God I'm an essential worker. Like this is, you know, whatever like cookies, yeah. Essential worker.

    Molly Bierman (55:57)

    Like, wow.

    Jill Griffin (55:58)

    Bazaar.

    Molly Bierman (56:04)

    Same.

    Jill Griffin (56:09)

    essential worker making my cookies must be made!

    Molly Bierman (56:11)

    Carrying that letter. Carrying

    the letter.

    Janie (56:15)

    Like you said, what hope slinger, like I call myself, I like, I'm gonna use slinger. Like I'm always like, we're selling joy. Like that's it, we're selling joy. Like that's what we're selling. And like, that's the very core of everything we do. But so I had a little bit of money, I had more customers and I was like, okay, we're growing this wholesale business. We're growing this e-commerce business. We need our own space. Like I got a great COVID lease on the Upper West Side. And that was something where I was like, I'm never gonna be able to lease a space on the Upper West Side. You know, I'm an Upper West Sider born and raised.

    Jill Griffin (56:21)

    Yeah.

    Janie (56:44)

    My parents bought the apartment in the 70s for pennies. They're like, serving artists when I was growing up. And so it was like, it was my dream. And now I'm living in the apartment I grew up in, took over the apartment from my parents. But these were things where I was like, I will never be able to get a space on the Upper West Side because it's way out of reach. And all of a sudden, I'm taking over this tiny little COVID that needed construction.

    Jill Griffin (56:58)

    wow.

    Janie (57:08)

    but obviously there was a huge learning curve in going from leasing space from someone else and not having to worry about anything except like paying rent for the space and the actual like infrastructure of my like business just on the baking side into going into a commercial lease, which was, is still like at four locations is like so wildly interesting. But, you know, the thought was, can we like,

    Molly Bierman (57:16)

    Yeah.

    Janie (57:28)

    build our business and if one customer walks in the door like once in a while, cool, like we'll get some more customers. And that's not what happened. What happened was that we opened our doors and ⁓ the community was ready for it and excited for it. And I think exactly two months after I received like maybe a month after we opened our 80th street location, an email from Andy Cohen's I think it was the their talent Booker for watch what happens live. And she was like, Hey, like

    I'm not sure if you watch Watch What Happens Live or Bravo, but Andy Cohen's a huge fan of yours and would love to have you on the show. have you guys seen the show, Watch What Happens Live? So there's a bartender, right? And they were like, it's a small thing, but you'd be a bartender and we know you're sober, so you could build a cookie bar. And I was like, cool. I love Andy Cohen. I didn't watch a lot of Bravo at that time, but I loved the original Beverly Hills.

    Molly Bierman (58:07)

    Yeah. Yeah.

    Jill Griffin (58:08)

    Yeah.

    Janie (58:23)

    loved Bravo, you but had never necessarily seen the show. And I just, I didn't quite like understand like the cult of Bravo and like what a powerful, powerful human Andy Cohen is, right? And I was like, this is so cool. Like, this is so cool, but like didn't really think about like the after effect. And so I show up and we build this amazing cookie bar and Andy Cohen is like the sweetest person and so excited to meet me. Like I'm like.

    Jill Griffin (58:33)

    yeah.

    Janie (58:47)

    my God, this celebrity is so excited to meet me and talk about my chocolate chip cookies. And he like, it's so, yeah, I mean, it's so cool. And he was so kind and welcoming. So again, it wasn't like this, I wasn't sort of like, what's gonna happen? I was just like, this is so amazing. This guy is so kind. He wants to just like, you know.

    Jill Griffin (58:52)

    He loves your chocolate chip cookies. I saw some of those clips.

    Janie (59:09)

    talk about our cookies for a second. And he ended up on this episode, it was right after a Beverly Hills reunion that was like very explosive. And so like the viewership was really up. And then the way he talked about our cookies, like every commercial break that cuts back, he's eating a cookie and the PAs are like wiping crumbs off the floor. And he was just like so kind and so sweet and like so like, just like above and beyond and like talking about me and the cookies and

    And what happened was that it was a live show and I got off the set and we had like already like $150,000 in orders, which was like not something I'd expected. And for me again, was like three, like I'm like a year ago, $3,000. Stacy's Pita chips a lot of money, like, you know, $150,000 in orders. And this was in half an hour. And then there's the after show. And then I come back and I'm like freaking out. And then that, you know, brought obviously, so we have these orders that we have to fulfill. Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, do we shut down our?

    Molly Bierman (59:45)

    Whoa.

    Jill Griffin (59:47)

    That's amazing.

    You're like, cut, cut.

    Janie (1:00:03)

    What do we do? How do we manage this? This is like, I'd heard before, like being on like Oprah's favorite things list or Shark Tank can make or break a business. And so I'm having this like, oh crap moment of like, is this going to make or break me? And we're putting up like, I run my own website. So I'm putting up little things that are like, if you order, you won't get it for two to three months, you know, and people are still ordering. And so we have that. And then all of a sudden, like the floodgates open and people are lining up to go to the store. And then I'm on the Today Show, like a month and a half later.

    Jill Griffin (1:00:07)

    Thank

    Molly Bierman (1:00:11)

    Yes.

    Jill Griffin (1:00:11)

    Thank

    Janie (1:00:31)

    And so it was like this wild, like, my God, like, and we pulled out of wholesale because of that. So, so the original question was like brick and mortars and what's the difference with this one? Our first, we opened our second bakery because our first one we needed, we were doing really well in e-commerce and we needed like more space to produce. And our third one we opened because our first one did so well in terms of like foot traffic. It was like, can we reproduce this small?

    Molly Bierman (1:00:38)

    Wow.

    Janie (1:00:56)

    you know, walk in, pick up bakery. And so like all three of our locations currently like have different purposes, but none of them have seating. They're basically for pickup orders. And so this fourth one was like our, our 80, we're moving it around the corner from our 80th street, our original location to 81st because like over the years and our first location is down the stairs, like down four steps in a basement on the side street. And it's our most profitable location. But it's like a, you know,

    like a basement hovel essentially. And so it was sort of the question was like, you know, our lease is up soon. The space isn't big enough. The community, right? Like our community here like wants to spend more time with us. They're like, you know, asking like if we can open a place with seating, they're asking, you know, they're asking for more products. They're asking to spend more time with us. And so all the feedback was sort of like,

    Like, can we take this, move it? Like, literally, I think I asked my broker, was like, I want like a two block radius. Like, I will not move three blocks away. I will not move four blocks away. Like, it has to be within a two block radius. And so like, you know, over a period of six months, like we looked for a space and found this space that's literally a block and a half away from our original space. It's on a corner. You know, it's, anytime someone walks in, they're like, it's huge. And when I first walked in, I was like, it's huge. But now that I'm like building it, I'm like, my God, this is so small.

    But it's like, you the priority for this was like taking what we have, expanding the menu, and then expanding like our reach in the community. And like, can you spend time with us, right? Can we be the place where like nannies come like after school? Can we be the place where like moms and dads come for their moment alone after school drop off? Like, can we be the place where people who don't want to go to the bar after dinner, all our locations are open pretty late because we do really well late at night, or by late, I mean, till 11, but.

    Molly Bierman (1:02:30)

    .

    you

    That's late for us, okay? Yeah.

    Janie (1:02:44)

    There's no, yeah, yeah, totally. Like not bar

    Jill Griffin (1:02:44)

    That's late.

    Janie (1:02:47)

    late, but late, right? Because what I found was that like I was going out with friends to dinner and not wanting to end the night, but like wanting to go somewhere and every bakery closes at, you know.

    Molly Bierman (1:02:56)

    Right.

    Jill Griffin (1:02:57)

    Oh, I do that

    all the time. I do that all the time with my husband. I'm like, where can we get a nightcap? And our nightcap is dessert.

    Janie (1:03:01)

    It's impossible.

    Is that like a cookie or a cake or exactly like I love that. can we get I'm going to use that coming for a nightcap exactly or decaf coffee. And so for me, this space is like this is the dream, right? This was the dream when I was five or 10, even though I didn't even know it was the dream. This was sort of the dream, like pre pre being like no brick and mortar. And this is sort of where it's like, like we're so even my one of my our head of people likes to say, like everybody has this parasocial relationship with me where they like think

    Jill Griffin (1:03:06)

    Or decaf coffee. ⁓

    Janie (1:03:33)

    Like, you know, like people are invested in the business. Like people think they know me really well. And that's like really cool and really beautiful that like, you know, customers who like, I'm never in the front when they walk in, are you Jamie? Like, it's so great to meet you. We've been doing this for years. Or customers that I've gotten to know over the years. And so like can be this, this landing space where like they not only get to spend more time with me and our team, but it's also serves this purpose of like.

    you know, being like another gathering place in the community. And so like that's sort of like what I'm looking for in this one is like, you know, the great side effect is like, we'll expand sales, but it'll also be, you know, like more, more time, more time spent, more connection.

    Molly Bierman (1:04:14)

    That's amazing. What a story. Like truly, truly incredible. mean, the, and I think the most, you know, the biggest takeaway for me from hearing you, meeting you, and understanding the journey is that really what's made it most successful is your compassion, your empathy, and your desire for connection, you know? And when we really talk about

    the recovery journey and what that looks like. That's really what we build our foundation on. So to know that those pillars are in your business model, it's really not shocking that it's successful, at least for me, to know that, you know, that's really what you're trying to build and co-create. And to do it with a level of humility that you do is, I mean, aspiring truly. So.

    Janie (1:04:52)

    Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Thank you.

    Molly Bierman (1:05:04)

    In every episode, we always end the same way. If you have listened to our episodes, you will know. If you haven't, that's okay and it will be a surprise. But we ask that you give a permission slip to our listeners. And so what would be your permission slip for those that are listening?

    Janie (1:05:21)

    I think, I mean, for me, it's like always like, you know,

    give yourself permission to like that thing that you think about all the time that feels like insurmountable, but you just like can't stop thinking about it. Like give yourself permission to like take that like once just the one beginning step, right? Like take that one little step up the stairs and see how it feels and, and like keep pushing because like the things that are like insurmountable right now, like if you take those steps, like, you know,

    will no longer be insurmountable. You'll be halfway there, right? And I guess like for me, that's like, you know, never stop growing, never stop being willing to grow.

    Jill Griffin (1:05:58)

    I love that.

    Molly Bierman (1:05:58)

    I mean,

    truly incredible. So thank you. Where can people find you? Yeah.

    Jill Griffin (1:06:01)

    Where can people find your cookies? Let's show it. Yeah, where can I because

    Janie (1:06:04)

    Yeah yeah yeah

    okay. Yes. Janiebakes.com. You can order online or Goldbelly and then you can also find all our locations. Yeah yeah. So.

    Jill Griffin (1:06:05)

    people are gonna want to order some of these cookies after this episode

    Molly Bierman (1:06:10)

    Okay. And you're.

    you're on Gold Belly. Okay, okay, great.

    I use Gold Belly a lot when I'm craving New York or New, well really New Haven pizza because it's better. You heard it here first.

    Janie (1:06:24)

    Where do you order from?

    Molly Bierman (1:06:25)

    Sally's or Zappardi's. Both are really good. And if either would like a sponsorship on the podcast here at No Permission Necessary, you may totally have access. We would welcome that. Janie, all of your information will be in the show notes. We are so honored, privileged to have you on our podcast. Thank you so, so much for sharing just a slice of your.

    Janie (1:06:26)

    Sally's okay,

    Let's them.

    Molly Bierman (1:06:44)

    sweetness, your humility, your kindness with us and wishing you all the success on your fourth location. Thanks for coming.

    Janie (1:06:50)

    Thank you guys so much.

    So good.

    Jill Griffin (1:06:53)

    Thanks, Jamie.

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