Chemistry or Compulsion? Sex, Love, Addiction, and the Work of Real Recovery with Dr. Sheila Shilati
Episode 24 with Dr. Sheila Shilati
In this episode of No Permission Necessary, Molly Bierman and Jill Griffin are joined by clinical psychologist and recovery expert Dr. Sheila Shilati, co-founder of The Malone Collective, for an honest conversation about recovery, accountability, and what it really means to rebuild after public and private consequences.
Using Elizabeth Gilbert’s relationship memoir as a jumping-off point, the three unpack the complex realities of addiction, sex and love addiction, codependency, and the blurred line between chemistry and compulsion. They also dig into a topic dominating social media, narcissism, clarifying the difference between “traits” and a true personality disorder, and why labels often get misused.
This episode is ultimately about redemption: how healing requires humility, support systems, boundaries, and the courage to stop asking for permission, especially when your past tries to narrate your future.
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Molly Bierman (00:00)
We're back guys. We've got Sheila Shalati on today and guys, we tried to record this episode last week and the universe was not on our side. So we're back.
Host (00:12)
Mercury was still in retrograde. So I'm just going to blame it on that. Yeah, it was that. But this has been a long time coming. Like we were talking about, it was August when we were in California.
Sheila Shilati (00:14)
Was it? ⁓ that explains everything. Yeah. absolutely.
Yeah, August
or September? Yeah.
Host (00:29)
and
Molly Bierman (00:29)
Yeah,
maybe somewhere, maybe September, but yeah.
Host (00:31)
yeah, maybe September, we, and Sheila and I met at this dinner and we talked about books, which I love, and somehow we started a book club. We started our own book club. We wrote, yeah, Molly was an unsuspecting victim of the book club.
Molly Bierman (00:49)
Guys, I'm just gonna let you know. So it is hard for me to read. Okay, so I usually listen to books on Audible. I listen to books on Audible because it's hard for me. I don't know. I feel like there's a potential. Maybe I'm dyslexic in some fashion. Okay, but I don't know. What I do know is that when I read aloud,
Host (00:55)
Why?
Mmm.
Molly Bierman (01:11)
and read at the same time. I mean, it's easier for me to process, which I guess makes sense why audibles are much more easily accessible for me.
Host (01:20)
Maybe that's just how you process.
Maybe you process through your auditory senses better.
Molly Bierman (01:25)
And maybe, but what I know is that I purchased a Kindle, peer pressure from Sheila and Jill because I had to be a part of this book club because I couldn't tell them no. And so I purchased a Kindle and I purchased this book that we're gonna get into a little bit about. I cannot explain the level of, not discomfort I had reading the book.
It was just, I don't tend to read things that I work in in the everyday, if that makes sense. So when you work in behavioral health, you hear a lot about the isms. And what that means is alcoholism, sex addiction, gambling addiction, mental health crisis, like that's probably not my go-to to unwind. And so now I'm reading through someone's journey.
Host (02:23)
Trainwreck.
Trainwreck. Let's call it what it is. ⁓
Molly Bierman (02:24)
I
dumpster fire
of a life with someone who's an active addiction and I could not be less enthusiastic, okay? And so...
Sheila Shilati (02:42)
I feel like we're gonna have to make reparations for this, Joe. I just feel the sense of getting on.
Molly Bierman (02:46)
Yeah. Or let's
just find another. Listen, I'm here. I'm committed to the book club. This was our first pass. We will recover. But Sheila, why don't you share a little bit about the book that we read and what the desire of the topic was.
Sheila Shilati (03:02)
Blah.
Yeah. ⁓ So I've never read Elizabeth Gilbert. I knew of her from Eat, Love, and of course, of like the blockbuster film that came out. And so there was a New York Times article that came out from a
literary journalist that basically ripped into it and described it as just kind of this self grandizing experience of this woman and just kind of the vomiting that goes on and the overarching kind of lack of kind of any real, ⁓ listen, I'm not a literary person and I can't, to qualify what is,
or isn't good literature, I'm probably not the best individual. It was kind of like when I used to drink and they'd like bring the wine and be like, here, this is wherever. And then you take a sip and you're like, is it good or bad? I don't know. It's just drinkable. ⁓ So she gets into it, right, it'll get real. Whatever.
Host (04:06)
Yeah, it's gonna get me there. mean, a book, that's the same
I'm looking for in a book. Like, is it going to take me out of myself and I'm gonna like get into this story? That's what I'm looking for.
Sheila Shilati (04:16)
Exactly, right? And is
it compelling enough? So the part that really struck me was the whole premise of the book was around Elizabeth Gilbert's experience with her lover, who was also an addict, and her discovery of having been diagnosed with liver cancer.
What was the most pertinent part was the story emphasized as part of the journey how it became a rationalization for this woman to go just full blown back into her addiction and how Elizabeth cosigned on that and what that looked like. And again, I hadn't read the book yet, so I found the fundamental question of what would you do if, just as somebody in
recovery myself if I knew I had a terminal diagnosis and would that, where would I land with it? And certainly her partner was not the first person to have that happen to them. ⁓ But really just kind of all these contextual and confounding pieces with it that I posed the question to Jill when we were kind of chatting. like, you know, that's a fucking like really interesting just kind of dialogue around like, what would you do and why would you do it? And now here she is writing about it. And it sparked enough
of my curiosity to go to jail. What do you think? Should we read this? Should we have a ⁓ one month, you know, of epilogue of it and come back and see what we think?
And that's kind of what kind of sparked it. So the book itself is about kind of her experience with sex and love addiction, her experience with her lover going through this kind of massive catastrophic relapse, how they kind of both came out of it, the lessons she learned. And, you know, and to your point, Molly, it was hard to read because I'm like, yeah, I deal with this shit every day. Everyone who walks through our doors, I'm like, yep.
You know, like, we get it, so what are we going to do to heal with it? So here we are. You're welcome.
Host (06:24)
I also think it was hard to take off for me the different hats we wear, right? Because somebody who's not an addict or an alcoholic in recovery...
they may read this book and be fascinated in a different way, right? For me, I'm like, I definitely identify with her lover Raya. Like that would be me in this book. Elizabeth Gilbert is not me at all. I don't identify with that. That's not me. But I will take someone hostage and bleed them dry of all their resources. That is much more my style. And my history proves that when I'm actively using, right? So like, it was hard to take that part of it off
Sheila Shilati (06:40)
Literally.
Molly Bierman (06:56)
Yes.
Host (07:06)
I'm like, ⁓ I can totally see this happening actually. then, but I'm so far removed from active addiction that it's like, ⁓ like, I don't know. Like if I had cancer, would that be the moment where I'm like, maybe I stop now, not, not I restart. Like, especially now that I'm in sobriety, like I can't imagine. But then also taking off my therapist hat was also hard because I kept thinking about all these different intervention points and what the family was thinking and.
Honestly, that just sums up my problem with the entire book is that it I had to really struggle through picking it up every time I would put it down again because I'm like This is just making me think too much. Like this is not this is not relaxing. This is not I Feel stressed out when I'm reading this honestly
Molly Bierman (07:55)
Well, I also
feel like it captures, and this is when I started generating some questions for this episode, what it really captures is this ache for connection and loneliness. mean, there was such this...
her not feeling connected to her, Elizabeth is who I'm speaking about, not Raya, but her not feeling connected to her basically entire life. I mean, she's built such a robust life and then to be able to sacrifice all of those parts of yourself. I mean, I remember writing an essay in college about how...
you get into a relationship and the parts of the the parts of yourself that you're attracted to are to each other essentially are the first things that are sacrificed in some ways to keep the relationship going like ⁓ I really like have strong ties to my family or strong ties to my friend group or strong ties to whatever a club sport or a hobby and then all of a sudden you're like but I don't really have time for that now because I'm in a relationship right
So these things start to become sacrifice when really those are the parts of each individual that were attractive to begin with of why you were attracted to the relationship and why you were attracted to one another. And so it was mind blowing to me how quickly and look, I have been in recovery a very long time. And so maybe it's hard for me to wrap my head around that, like Jill said, but it was mind blowing to me at how quickly.
someone who is not actively using the substances really, like she had kind of played into it a little bit and partied a little bit with her, but someone who wasn't truly addicted to the substances got sucked in and really...
I don't even have words. I mean, it was remarkable how quick that took place and how quick she was willing to sacrifice it all. I understand the grips of addiction and someone doing that when they're addicted to substances. I also have a hard time understanding the other side of it. And so maybe, Sheila, you can kind of speak to that a little bit in maybe what you've seen in your profession, in the people that you work with. What is that?
Sheila Shilati (10:16)
Mm-hmm.
Molly Bierman (10:18)
You know, when we talk about co-dependency and we talk about, you know, sex and love addiction, and we talk about all these things, for a consumer who doesn't really know anything about this type of space, what is that? What is that, you know, what is that disconnect for people?
Sheila Shilati (10:34)
Yeah, I mean, I think as lesbian, it's kind of like part of our roadmap to relationships. ⁓
Molly Bierman (10:42)
Okay.
Host (10:45)
Let's talk about that because we're not familiar with that roadmap.
Molly Bierman (10:46)
Yeah, because I feel so foreign
in this, right? Because I talked to another friend of mine after a meeting last week and she was telling me, she was like, I'm reading this Elizabeth Gilbert book and I was like, my God. I was like, how do you like it? She's like, I love it. I was like, Kelly, what? You love the book? I said, why? She said, because this is like a rite of passage as a lesbian. I said,
Host (11:04)
Now!
Sheila Shilati (11:14)
you
Molly Bierman (11:15)
Okay, I have a lot to learn.
Host (11:16)
⁓ so we have different
perspectives. All right, so tell us more about this, Sheila. We need to learn about this now.
Sheila Shilati (11:20)
Yeah,
don't know the genesis of it ultimately, but I do think there is just, I mean, I think the process of just kind of being in a marginalized population and working towards like what connection looks like and the modeling for what connection is, is a bit skewed because we don't necessarily have as much accessibility or information or just two women together with our own kind of emotional, ⁓
processes and our needs and the nurturing and all that. So it kind of like it's like a perfect setup to recreate kind of those depths of we feel like we get from our partner. Now it happens in heterosexual relationships but I think in like you know
Lesbian relationships, feel like there is a reason these jokes about us like getting you hauls like they're very true I mean I at one point my mom's like are you gonna move in with this one too? And I'm like, I don't know, you know, we've been dating two weeks So I think there is just kind of element of just kind of the coupling and the part of like, okay This is my person. I need to rely on it
To me, part of it felt age-related, because I think it's just also a demonstration of what we know about ourselves and relationships and differentiating and who we identify as and kind of this experiment of, well, if I find you, then you see me and I'm seen, so therefore, you are my world. And I think Elizabeth speaks to that, particularly with Raya, about how she kind of created Raya as the god for her and what
what Raya did or said created this element of who she thought she was supposed to be or just even a feeling or a sense of safety. So some of that might be tied into like, think the LGBTQIA plus community perhaps seeking safety. So when you find a place you feel seen and heard and taken care of, and that's just from kind of our own relational understanding, but codependency and what I call lovesickness and, and mesh men and all of these things
Elizabeth Pilber referred to.
What was interesting to me in the book for her was that I found it interesting that she kind of came to these realizations a little bit later in life about her inter-relational patterns, the sex and love addiction, the healing around it. even this, I mean, I want to say she was, her mid-40s, late 40s with this relationship with Raya. So to me, again, maybe because I've been doing my work for so long, maybe because I've been in the rooms, it just feels like a late
stage growth period. ⁓
Host (14:14)
still have
questions about that because I never read Eat, Love or if I did, not memorable. But my understanding is that she left her first marriage for this guy in India. Is that, or, or I don't know if she left him and went on this journey and then met somebody, but either way there was a, it seemed like that, that was celebrated.
Sheila Shilati (14:24)
Yeah, was my understanding. I never read...
Host (14:39)
Right? That was celebrated publicly. She made a lot of money off the book, off the movie, you know, this whole thing. So now she's married and, and to the, to her second husband, while she's carrying out this relationship with her best friend, I'm putting in quotations, turned into lover. And so the way she described it in the book is that
people started kind of noticing that she's showing up to all these things and her husband's not around. So there's question about like, Hey, what about your husband? Like that would be like if Molly and I, we just started doing all these things on our own and our spouses weren't coming to any of them. People were just posting on herself, but no, no husbands were around. There would be questions and she's on public tours at this point. She's publicizing her book. She's going international things, TV appearances. So it's not like,
Sheila Shilati (15:25)
Yeah.
Yes.
Host (15:35)
I don't know, like I question was there not anybody along the way who like said, hey, this seems a little off or chaotic or I mean, Molly and I speak to that all the time. Like having people in your circle that are gonna call you on your shit, right, is really important. And I kind of question, cause she doesn't talk about it in the book, but was there a person that was like, hey, but her not.
Molly Bierman (15:59)
There had to have been. There had to have been.
Host (16:02)
Speaking about it in the book kind of is like, that's the annoying part to me. Cause it's like, is this, I don't know.
Sheila Shilati (16:07)
Or
even just the part in the ass because she didn't speak about her ex-husband out of respect. Right.
Host (16:13)
Not really, out of respect. Probably because he's like, what
the fuck? Like this whole thing is crazy.
Sheila Shilati (16:18)
But for all
we know, he may have spent two years being like, what are you doing? she may have been navigating this in a way that just kind of took Raya.
and fed her with all of this, you know, the element of kind of, I don't know if it's just even the caretaking, but whatever the element of our friendship was, there's a whole host of, yeah, there's a whole other half we don't know. And had we gathered that information, might give us a different lens. ⁓
Host (16:48)
I just think
that that, now that we're talking about it, is what really bothered me about this. It's like she wants to kind of position it as this profound moment, like you said, this late stage, I'm a 11-sex addict and I need to be in 12-step recovery.
Yet the whole time you're kind of witnessing this thing nowhere along this journey did you say like this is kind of little messed up like I'm obsessed with this person like nowhere along this journey you questioned just giving somebody a house to live in and I mean she went she went to these extremes.
Sheila Shilati (17:22)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Host (17:24)
So, and
to be clear, to be fair, right? I think the delusion of alcoholism and drug addiction is similar in the fact where I lived a certain way for a long time, not thinking there was any problem with it, right? Where other people around me were kind of saying, something's wrong. So I do also identify with that disconnect.
Sheila Shilati (17:46)
But it's also if you don't receive any consequences for your actions up until that point, it's only you, you know, allows you to keep doing what you're doing. And she strikes me as someone that was high functioning enough and wasn't so messy that other people may not have noticed because there is kind of a thin line between sex and love addiction, I think, and this element of it all kind of come in and melt together. Codependencies.
self and love addiction, but also just how we as a society view, like, what are the rules of like dating and being with somebody? And it's not, I'm sure it's not uncommon. You may have friends that may be married or may have a partner, but like still yearn for other people or still have feelings or still getting attracted, you know? And maybe they don't talk about it as much or maybe they talk about it with you. But I think it's fairly easy because I feel like sex and love
addiction, unlike alcoholism, which can be a lot more kind of outwardly and prevalent. But sex and love addiction can really take a very kind of concealed look to it. And you could probably hide it for much, much longer.
Molly Bierman (18:57)
you
So when we talk about the need for intimacy and the need for connection.
and the sacrifices that people take to get to that, I think that's really what I would love people to understand a bit more. how does somebody create more of a healthy self so they're not desiring that?
Sheila Shilati (19:22)
Yeah.
You know, listen, I don't think any of us are devoid about the desire to want to connect and what that means to us and how we relate to that and how we relate it to intimacy. And I think a well-involved and matured point of view does really kind of look at the ways that we've done it in an unhealthy way. And we go, ooh, that's problematic. Or someone shows us it's problematic. Or your therapist helps you see where it's problematic. And you're working towards kind of healthier decision-making, better friendships.
better partnerships. But you know, the thing I did appreciate, because I don't want to, you know, poo-poo on her book entirely, is that she did speak a lot to the relationship with God.
in the end and how that really shaped how she was thinking about her decision making and recovery that and I do think that that element on just the spiritual aspect and we'll certainly we know how big it is and part of our own community but I do think this kind of development for her and the integration of a power greater than herself that's outside of like the earthly pleasures and the earthly wants and needs and this kind of way that we satisfy
those empty parts of ourselves, you know, we don't know until we know. We don't think it's a bad decision until we're destructive in it. We don't realize, you know, unless there's a consequence. And having had my own consequences in fairly fucking dramatic fashion that, you know, has its own intrigue and salaciousness. Yeah, I could probably fall into that group fairly easily. And maybe I was one of the luckier ones that, you know, this
it happened to me and you know by my early 30s I was like I better fucking do something about this otherwise it's really gonna like you know it'll be another 20 years of wreckage so you know I do think that it's kind of like how the how-to part of it is like you can give the guidebook to anybody but we until we go through what we don't know what we don't want it's like we're not gonna see the value of the better parts of it unfortunately
Host (21:37)
Well, I also think, you know, when you look at, can look at my own recovery, but also many other people's, some people really need to crash and burn. I mean, I talked to lot of families and clients, like, unfortunately, you might not have your bottom yet. I actually said that to somebody this week. This might not be your bottom. And we can't...
Sheila Shilati (21:55)
That's right.
Host (21:58)
You can't take that away from somebody either because that's the moment when somebody gets into their own recovery, right? Whether it's their mental health, whether it's their substance use. It's like you don't know your limit until you get there. And that that part of the book when she finally got to the point after she drained all of her resources after her, you know, Raya's has relapsed. We have we're at the needle exchanges where we got drug dealers coming to the house. I mean, the picture of
chaos that she described after she started using again was like, wow, this is tremendous. This has really, and I think Raya really did.
Sheila Shilati (22:40)
Well actually I think her,
you know what Jill? It's funny because Raya is that dating app for people that are like in entertainment. I think her name is Raya.
Host (22:50)
Raya?
Molly Bierman (22:51)
Oh, the dating app? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sheila Shilati (22:52)
Yeah, but Raya, appropriately so. I think it's Raya,
Host (22:57)
Also didn't know that, but okay.
Sheila Shilati (23:00)
right? Isn't it? I think it's pronounced Raya. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's how I would think of it too. I think it, think I, because I remember I looked this up, what's the correct pronunciation? And I think it was Raya. But yeah, but Raya is a very comfortable pronunciation.
Host (23:01)
Raya, I don't know. just, that's how I was thinking in my head.
Molly Bierman (23:15)
Ray.
Host (23:17)
Who looked up what
these people look like, okay? Because I certainly did. I certainly did. I was like, I need some context here.
Sheila Shilati (23:20)
did, I did, definitely did. Absolutely. I need like,
Molly Bierman (23:20)
didn't. I didn't.
Sheila Shilati (23:25)
yeah, I need to know, I need to vision this in a way that's like, but yeah. No, is it Raya? Yeah, Raya's a, yeah, it's a hot dude. Yeah, yeah, anyway, Raya, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I was just, I was like thinking.
Molly Bierman (23:31)
Boom!
Raya is the dating app, Raya is the dating app and Raya is the character.
Host (23:33)
Raya, Raya.
Molly Bierman (23:40)
But
what do you think when in terms of, and maybe either of you could answer this, right? You're in a relationship, you're feeling excited, it's lustful, it's all the things, right? There's this desire to want to spend time and connect and do all the things. What would you say is a good takeaway for people who are either...
dating, have had issues dating, or are getting ready to date, like what's the difference between what someone would call chemistry versus what someone would call a compulsion? Because it felt very much that she had a compulsion with this person rather than, I mean, chemistry was there, yes, but it became a compulsion. It became a compulsion.
Sheila Shilati (24:18)
Yeah.
Host (24:19)
Whoa!
But they were friends
for years before they ever crossed that barrier too. So there is that.
Molly Bierman (24:34)
Mm-hmm.
Host (24:35)
But I will, I mean, there are a bunch of studies around this that our chemistry actually changes as we fall in love with somebody. So that feeling of lust is actually chemically connected. The oxytocin, when you touch and hug somebody, all the love chemicals. And so when you first meet somebody, I don't know the exact time, maybe you do, Sheila, but there's a period of time when you feel the most connected, that excitement, that lust, that feeling. And then over time it goes away.
And I think and correct me if I'm wrong because I don't I don't work with sex and love addicts But I would imagine that people who are compelled more to that compulsion and that sex and love They want to feel that just like we chase that first high when we get when we use that drug the first time We always want that back. You'll never get it back Except I think in sex and love addiction you can recreate that with other people because it's new chemistry So the other person's chemistry is is is making your brain fire, but when you're in a long-term relationship
Molly Bierman (25:30)
also think...
Host (25:35)
relationship, you don't get as excited. It's not the same. just chemically will never be the same.
Molly Bierman (25:41)
But that desire still exists, right? So I think a lot of times even in relationships, I mean, you look at the divorce rate, I mean, it's astronomical. So I think there is still this desire for people in their relationships to feel something new, to feel that spark. So I'm not, I think that still exists. I mean, how many times I've had...
Host (25:59)
But you have to work
at that. And somebody who has sex and love addiction, they don't want to work at that. They want that cheap high. They want that, they want that. That's what I think is a difference.
Molly Bierman (26:06)
Sure, we're here to learn from, we're here to learn
from Sheila. We're here to learn.
Sheila Shilati (26:10)
Let me tell you how it is. ⁓ Yes, so it is that, right? think, listen, let's be honest, healthy relationships and...
Molly Bierman (26:12)
Yeah
Sheila Shilati (26:22)
working in a healthy way in your life is like, it's boring. Like her related, it's boring. I have these sessions with therapists and she's like, how are you? I'm like, I'm bored. Mind you, if someone looked at my life, they'd be like, how? You have this and this and this and you're doing that. And I think it is that internal, like how do we surrender to that like boredom, if you will, or people call it peace.
Molly Bierman (26:27)
Right. It's boring.
Host (26:27)
It's hard.
Sheila Shilati (26:52)
like, yeah, my life is not chaotic. And every time I talk to my best girlfriend and I'm like, and I'll text her out of just like humor, but be like, today, today's the day I'm going to relapse. I just want you to know so when you get the call, it's no big deal. And she's like, let me know how that turns out, you know, and I'm like, I need some. And it's true, because we know, we know the consequence of that and we get it. But yes, so that kind of innate
Host (26:56)
Wow, this is what this is.
Sheila Shilati (27:22)
Spark and that innate feeling and the oxytocin. It's everything that hits the midbrain Take that and then translate into like social media How many of us fucking sir? I had to put an app on my fucking phone Because I'm like I can't be on social media for more than like 15 minutes a day And it does it cuts me off and then I have to make a choice Do you want to continue in this black hole that's not serving you or do you?
Host (27:47)
do, nine out of ten times, and I still press the
Molly Bierman (27:49)
Yes!
Host (27:50)
button.
Sheila Shilati (27:50)
But
Host (27:50)
Fuck this. I'm an adult.
Sheila Shilati (27:52)
yes, right, right? And you put at the end of the day, the consequence is not gonna be as catastrophic as you stepping out on your partner, you know, but yet.
Molly Bierman (28:04)
What is everything
that you see, right? So even, you know, the reality TV shows, let's just, right there, hard stop at the reality TV shows because they have these, what I understand are these like avid followers of these reality dating TV shows, right? And ⁓ bachelor nation, if you will, okay? And that's what they call themselves. And so they live in this,
Host (28:33)
They wanna be part of this. They think they're living vicariously through the show.
Molly Bierman (28:33)
Excitement!
But
then I'm like, okay, maybe that's a healthier thing for people to be watching that versus acting it out in their own life, right? I mean, I don't know.
Sheila Shilati (28:45)
Listen, mean, I think it is that kind of fine line between this experience of, I mean, listen.
This is great example. think just because before I was unhealed, my wife may say otherwise. She's like, tell them more about you healed your work. It's gradations. It varies. But before I really did the work and I was unhealed, I think my ability and my way of hypersexualizing everything was really accessible, was pretty rampant. became this object of, you know, ⁓ the thoughtfulness wasn't
It was just something my brain needed and something I had to kind of end up and many.
points along the way, getting to some really unhealthy, unreasonable, even like the chase of straight women became sport, right? And that's another topic for another day. But the idea and the experience of the seduction and the game playing and that hit of like, finally you got what you wanted. And you're like, okay, that was good. Now where's my next high? You are kind of searching and this compulsion to search for that, you know?
really
dramatically changed and that kind of shift is like, yes, I can still admit, I think it's healthy to admit like you could still find other people attractive. You could still find and go, wow, they're really beautiful or they're, you know, and, I think the difference is, that when you remove and you actively work on the removal of their fantasy around it or what you think you need from them or what you feel like you you're missing because this person is going to fulfill that or this
relationship is going to fulfill that, then you've kind of transgressed into something that's a little bit healthier and you have awareness around it. Like I'm somebody that even the mere thought of like sexualizing somebody feels like a boundary crossing that's unhealthy. You know, even though they don't know it and they may never and they'll never know it, but even that mere thought is like, really is is terrifying. And if it ever were to come up, I go, whoa, what was that about? Like that was, you know,
So, but that took a lot of work, that took a lot of energy, that took a lot of therapy, that took a lot of being held accountable, working the stabs, doing the things.
You know, I think as a society we propel fantasy as a way of an escape and we go, it's okay. the hot bachelor, know, or the bath, you know, and the, and all of that at the end of the day, the bachelor is the game of seduction and we're enthralled with it. Romantic is a game of seduction. It all feels very safe to be into because we're not acting out these elements. And I think there's a real truth to that.
Molly Bierman (31:15)
Mm-hmm.
Sheila Shilati (31:40)
I'm not an expert per se on it, but I think it is kind of an internal question of what does and doesn't feel safe when we're acting out emotionally, you know, and we're trying to seek those midbrain hits.
Molly Bierman (31:57)
What does that mean for you as far as consequence? mean, you shared that some of your consequences, we talk a lot about on this podcast, we talk a lot in general when you're working in the behavioral health space that the consequences eventually have to outweigh the relief, right? And so what does that look like for you in whatever form you're able to share or, know?
Sheila Shilati (32:14)
They have to.
Yeah, I mean for
me it was a really big professional consequence, you know and one that I
had managed to participate in my life in an unhealthy, and again, I think that's why I can relate to some of Elizabeth's experience. think I've always been kind of high functioning. I could conceal well. It was hard to kind of gauge whether or not where my sickness landed, and I was able to easily move through things, either through charisma or management.
manipulation or whatever it was, but I was able to control my narrative in a certain way so that it always kept me at a distance and whatever lessons I thought I learned or spiritual awakenings were just kind of like thinly layered covers, you know, for my next act of harm, right? And that's something that it's really hard to come face to face with your own potential for harm when you think you're a good person.
Molly Bierman (33:16)
hit.
Sheila Shilati (33:25)
And both can be true. You could be a really great person and you can also be really harmful. So for me, it finally took a consequence that required me to ask myself a very specific question, which was, am I finally going to wake up and choose to make better choices and actually do the work that I needed to do? Or could I have still kept doing what I was doing for another 10, 20 years and probably
Sure, but the public consequence and the persona and the public self was now being challenged in a way that I couldn't escape if I was going to continue doing what I'm doing. So for me, it was... ⁓
financial consequences, was professional consequences, was relational consequences, it was a complete loss ⁓ and a grief that I could not think my way out of. And that for me was my bottom. That for me was the spiritual two by four. And I had to move through that deliberately. And I think probably two years after that, probably
engaged in some really good self-destruction as a way of, and I think Elizabeth, yeah, Elizabeth alludes to that as well. She's like, I just, you know, I just took off and needed to feed that need. So it didn't happen right away. It took a real kind of process to then come back to and go, okay, all right, God, I'm on my knees. What do I need to do? Like, tell me just, you know, tell me what I need to do. Tell me what I need to surrender to, tell me, you know, because I don't have the answers.
Molly Bierman (34:52)
Mm-hmm.
Sheila Shilati (35:14)
and relying myself is an incredibly poor choice of direction. And it really allowed me to get humble, to remove ego, to take ownership, to have accountability. I think I still kind of have narcissistic traits in certain ways, because sometimes I feel like I have to in certain ways. But it's so much more in check in relation to...
I truly value the lessons and how I'm still held accountable to those lessons.
Molly Bierman (35:50)
What do you mean by narcissistic traits? Because I think this is a very hot topic right now. There is a lot of individuals who throw around, my ex-boyfriend was a narcissist, my wife has borderline personality disorder, this person has antisocial personality disorder. So when you say narcissistic traits, I think there's a lot to share with listeners. So they have a
because there's a lot of clickbait, right? So whenever people see, you know, a rabbit hole about someone talking about, you know, this, I'll give you paint a picture. Woman sobbing, it draws you in onto Instagram. You see her story, talk about her husband who had a narcissistic personality disorder and destroyed her life, right? Like that's a very viable clip that you would see on Instagram, on TikTok, on any social.
So can you better explain to people what it means to have traits and how that actually is more common than uncommon?
Sheila Shilati (36:52)
Yeah, I mean listen it's right. I do think it's a very widely used term ⁓ And something that may not be fully understood because I think where this kind of personality at listen narcissism is a defense mechanism against your own Developmental harm
Right? So it's developed. It's developed through a way of protecting you from feelings and harm and hurt. And so it's not by accident that a lot of narcissists come from households where either there was a great deal of neglect, there was a great deal of harm, there was a great deal of authoritarian parenting style, and just the complete lack of that person, you know, being able to connect in a safe way. So narcissism, like other personality characteristics,
becomes this, you know, developing, you know, part of ourselves that allows us to move through life without the fear of harm.
emotional or otherwise. So once you strengthen that muscle in a way that now feeds a reoccurring narrative around you're a good person, can't, you know, you can't do any wrong. You're great at these things. Like your opinion is the most important. You're the most important person in the room that it kind of distorts how you think about yourself because you didn't get a feedback mechanism growing up that properly like validated you.
a healthy way and afforded you the ability to make mistakes and it to be okay. know, and so the development of narcissism as a personality trait, you know, is one that keys into a removal, a disconnect from a lack of emotional integration. So that's why a real, you truly, truly, truly know a narcissist or metanarcicist or a narcissist, there is a complete devoid.
of empathy. ⁓
Molly Bierman (38:57)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Sheila Shilati (38:58)
Right?
And that is, and I think that's the key characteristic trait, you know, is that they may be able to feign or they may have learned to kind of learn social mores to pretend like they care. But at the end of the day, the reality is the only person and the only value system they have is within themselves. So when I talk about it on a personal level, when I go, but some of it is healthy, you know, because I work on
I work in business arrangements. I work in interactions that may require me to be devoid of those feeling states, you know, because you're going to, you know, because I have to make hard decisions. have to, I may have deep empathy for certain things, but the narcissistic part goes, but this is now survival in this way. And if I'm not seen or perceived in this way or don't have, you know, the perception of my ability to be effective in a room may shift and change.
That's why you see a lot of high-powered individuals, executives, know, people in primary... ⁓
you know, kind of powerful positions generally will present with some level of kind of narcissism, you know, because it's almost a prerequisite to go into what are otherwise incredibly difficult interactions. And so there has to be a part of you that goes, yeah, I'm coming in to communicate in a way that's devoid of like, I'm not trying to go after your intent, you know, your emotional self. I'm trying to declare and debate.
and inform you that this is what's right. And that's one slice of looking at how that could be informative, you know? But it's an interesting way that I've come to kind of redefine it within myself because I do feel very tapped into empathy and it enables me to have deep connection and what have you. But then there is this other kind of like, I think, deep narcissistic way that I've grown up thinking I could do no wrong.
And that was reinforced by my parents. So it just got recreated over and over again.
Molly Bierman (41:07)
Hmm.
Right,
right.
Host (41:12)
But you meant
in narcissistic traits. And I think I have had conversations with clients that will come in my office and say, I think I have this personality disorder. I looked it up online and it's like, okay, well at any given time.
We may have traits of certain things, but that does not mean that we have a disorder. It doesn't mean that that's a persistent way that we behave across all circumstances and has this like, you know, ability to affect our functioning in the world. So there is, I always make that distinction because like Molly said, people throw around that, you know, they're a narcissist. It's like, well, yeah, they may have some traits and they might just be an asshole. That could also be the case.
Sheila Shilati (41:54)
That's right. I'm just a dick,
right? Where's that lip? Right? I'm just being a dick. yeah. Totally. A thousand percent. Yeah. My wife reminded me that last week as I said something and she's like, don't be a dick. And I was like, fair. Fair. Fair.
Host (41:56)
Yeah, sometimes people just suck. don't, there's no disorder for that. They just are not a great person. Yeah.
Molly Bierman (42:19)
Okay. Did you create that accountability for yourself post-consequence or did you have the accountability during the harmful behaviors that caused the consequence?
Sheila Shilati (42:27)
I think I always wanted it.
I always had cries for help, and I think I always needed it. And I think those cries for help were deeply missed. And because I could recover so quickly and make it look like it was no big deal. But I had several instances where I think were severe cries for help, for accountability. And again, I grew up without boundaries. I grew up without rules. I grew up thinking I was the best, and I can do no wrong. And so I'm not.
Molly Bierman (42:55)
Were you an only
child?
Host (42:56)
I was just gonna ask that.
Sheila Shilati (42:57)
No,
I have a younger brother. I'm Persian. So in Persian culture, you are like the sun and the earth and the moon and the stars. really, so the sun actually has greater even leniency. There is a saying, this is a little bit fun, but there's a saying in Farsi where the sun carries what's called like,
Molly Bierman (43:11)
as the daughter or as the son or as both.
Sheila Shilati (43:26)
The golden penis.
Molly Bierman (43:29)
Interesting.
Sheila Shilati (43:29)
Yes.
So the sun, I know we can spend the day. It's so cool. I'm here for you. ⁓ And so I think for me, my parents, like I grew up exposed and in a way that was.
Host (43:31)
I don't know this much about Persian culture. learning so much today. Lesbian culture, Persian culture.
Sheila Shilati (43:50)
there were no guidelines, there were no rules. were no, you know, I would go out drunk as a teenager. I would, my parents knew I would go and get fake IDs. They knew I would like go drink and I would just call them and be like, come pick me up. You know, I would have, they would come home. There'd be parties at the house with alcohol and they're like, oh look, you've made this beautiful pyramid made out of beer. You know, and I'm just like, yeah.
And I think it was just that way because I was a good student. I was a really good athlete. was a really good. So it was kind of like I was, I wasn't getting in trouble. like the, and my parents, you know, immigrated here, like they were kids too, you know, they just, they were out partying and having a good time and doing their thing. So they weren't bothering with like what I was up to. So all that to say. ⁓
Host (44:17)
That's amazing.
Molly Bierman (44:19)
So good.
Sheila Shilati (44:41)
I lost my train of thought. you know, yeah, how that shaped into the consequence piece was I just had to get hit so hard that I couldn't, I couldn't get, couldn't I couldn't imagine. It was the first time in my entire life that my mom actually said, were you thinking? And I was like, this is serious.
Molly Bierman (44:54)
Yeah, you couldn't deny it. Yeah, you couldn't deny it. Yeah.
Wow.
And almost probably what you had been yearning for, some structure and some...
Sheila Shilati (45:11)
the entire
Host (45:13)
Accountability.
Sheila Shilati (45:14)
I had, yeah, and so then once I really kind of understood the benefit of accountability, I've just, it's never stopped, you know? I've got a couples therapist, an individual therapist, I have, you know, my best friends in recovery, you know, like I have, you know, I'm in weekly groups, I do, you know, so I fundamentally ensure that harm in this way will never happen again, you know? I may do it in another way, but.
Host (45:42)
So I'm curious, do you hold your, you have one child? Two. So do you hold your children to different standards of accountability than how you were raised?
Sheila Shilati (45:45)
I have two.
Now, again.
My wife will say I am the more lenient one and that's fair and that is accurate, you know? But I do know the devastating effects of them not having that. So having gone through what I've gone through and working through a balance in that. But I am for sure the one they come running to that's like, mama, can we watch TV right now? And it's all subject to my own
of needing like an extra half an hour or needing an extra day. It's not like you can kind of make an example. I feel like the things I'm lenient on are reasonable in what we all experience as parents, but there is this funny way I do channel my...
Molly Bierman (46:30)
Sure, of course.
Host (46:32)
I mean, that's fair.
Sheila Shilati (46:44)
in certain things and I have to be very cognizant, or my wife reminds me of that, because it does kind of get channeled through. I have to like, for sure, for sure.
Molly Bierman (46:56)
Yeah, of course.
I was thinking about when you were sharing just kind of going back to the inception of like this idea of the podcast and there was Or having you on our podcast and there was some hurdles. I think you had to jump through internally Throughout your time paying your consequences in your career opening up a program all of the things that have come with and
having it, being exposing yourself essentially, right? Coming back into a career that's forward-facing in the limelight, you opened up a program, tell us in just a few sentences what that looked like for you and how you were able to not ask for permission. Not ask for permission, like everything that our podcast like kind of, you know, stands for.
Sheila Shilati (47:35)
Hmm. Yes.
Host (47:44)
Get through the fear. Yeah.
Sheila Shilati (47:46)
no permission necessary.
I have stopped using the word sorry as a regular thing because it I think as women, I think there is a way that we're kind of predisposed to just be sorry, be sorry. You know, it's like you'll catch other women like knock it like get that out of your vocabulary. I think.
where I was asking for redemption was external and not realizing that the redemption was all an inside project and a spiritual one. So it doesn't mean I don't still encounter.
incidents where people try to weaponize, right? They try to find your weakness and go, ⁓ you are morally unfit. You are professionally unfit. are, you know, and, and sometimes before where it used to injure me a lot. ⁓
Now it's kind of like, okay, you you're gonna have your opinion either way. That's okay, you know? And so I've been fortunate that I think through the work and through the exercise and through people not only learning who I am, but people understanding like the integrity that I have now. the, and this is 15, you know, I'm getting into like 15 years later, right? I'm 15 years evolved. I'm 15 years in the work. I'm 15.
years having accountability, I'm 15 years of responsibility and the seriousness with which I take that. So I think no matter what when you're front-facing or if you own a business as I do, you know, with my business partner and at the Malone Collective and I am still front-facing, you know, I definitely engage in a way that
I have a responsibility to ensure that we are ethically sound, we're ensuring quality care, we're showing up a certain way. I'd be lying if I said it sometimes doesn't still sit underneath my skin, like waiting. And I wish I could have this kind of, you know, what I did appreciate about Elizabeth Gilbert is like, she literally like had nothing to lose by just kind of putting it all out there. And she's like, I'm famous anyways, whether you like it.
or you don't, you know, it's like, you're gonna read it and you know who I am and she's gonna make money, right? Like that kind of like, whether it's fearlessness or shamelessness or you know, whatever it is. And I think I still kind of toe that line between, you know, I've had moments of like, my God, I just want to run with this and put it all out there so I can get in front of it. So when people find out it doesn't become this, my gosh, what is, you know.
And I think I've just kind of have no longer given permission for what people think affect because it's none of my business what you think of me is none of my business and Yeah, and it's taken a lot of work to get to that point I recently had a who I thought was a colleague and dear friend, you know
Molly Bierman (50:58)
There's the permission slip right there.
Host (50:59)
Yeah, there is the permission
slip.
Sheila Shilati (51:09)
that which was like that it was like a unusual bizarre thing I don't even want to give that that much time but I did find myself yeah again feeling that little because it's like the moment that comes up it's like that cross-section between
who I am now and the pride and the joy and the non-boring parts that come up and my kids and how I'm involved with my community and my dear friendships is a value system that is unequivocally the most precious things in my life and including that integrity of who I am and how that gets.
portrayed and how that gets felt and how that emanates from everything. So when it bumps up against that old self or that old narrative that just tries to edge its way in there, yeah, it can have a moment of like, know, and I've learned instead of being like, okay, you need to go away now. Let's go go go away. I just that little girl and I go come here. It's okay because what happened was not your
Molly Bierman (52:17)
Yeah.
Sheila Shilati (52:23)
How you felt and what drew you to those behaviors was not your fault. That work, the trauma, the whatever. And I care for her now. I take care of her and I nurture her the way that she needed back then. So it's translated into something deeply spiritual and my faith and my work within my faith and within my... ⁓
Molly Bierman (52:28)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Sheila Shilati (52:52)
system is all I really need to know and that's my truth.
Molly Bierman (52:57)
Thank you so much. Yeah.
Host (52:57)
give you a lot of credit. Yeah, thank you so
much. And I give you a lot of credit because we talked about this with Brad Sordy too about in our field and in behavioral health in general.
There's all these whispers behind the scenes, right? Because somebody has a mental health crisis, somebody relapses, somebody ha- things happen, right? And we're human. We are not exempt from these things happening just because we treat them or we're the experts or we're the professionals. And I think we do as a whole, a really poor job in our profession for as much empathy and compassion that we have for the clients that we serve. We do a really shitty job sometimes supporting
Sheila Shilati (53:20)
Mm-hmm.
Host (53:39)
our fellow colleagues when they are going through hard times.
Sheila Shilati (53:42)
Yeah.
Host (53:45)
I think one of the ways that we combat that is we start publicly having some of these conversations of like redemption and what that looks like. Because for me, what my work in the 12 step community shows me is that redemption comes from doing that work, right? From the accountability, from the immense process, from the spiritual process. And that's what I would like to be highlighting, not the mistake, not the thing, not the not whatever.
Molly Bierman (53:51)
Mm-hmm.
Host (54:14)
happened, it's like, but what did you do after that? Because that's the example that our clients need to see. That's the example the community needs to see. ⁓ You know, you see it in all industries, but I just think it's highlighted for me in our behavioral health community because we should do better. We know better, so we should do better. ⁓
Sheila Shilati (54:33)
Yeah. And I think it would be different
if I'm doing this a year. And this is something, I was talking to my girlfriend. She is an expert in sex and love addiction, Breanne Davis. She wrote a bestselling book on sex and love addiction. And I said, I'd love to hear your feedback. And she's like, I have so many thoughts. But the main thing that came up was that she felt the book was written too soon. And she said, when you're working through sex and love addiction, when you're going through these things,
Host (54:59)
Mmm.
Molly Bierman (55:02)
you
Sheila Shilati (55:03)
It is imperative that you're also showing how you are now in a relationship and how you fundamentally work through that. Right. And she like, you know, and she was in... ⁓
Molly Bierman (55:08)
Right? The recovery process, right?
Sheila Shilati (55:17)
know, poo-pooing it all together. She's like, I'm glad it's getting out there. I'm glad Elizabeth's like kind of, you know, holding a torch to it and showing people where this lands and opening up a dialogue and conversation. But I think something that's given me more anchoring is that, you know, as I'm, as I'm.
gently broaching this experience of ⁓ telling my story. I don't think, like, I don't say it outwardly publicly, this is probably the most public it's been, but gently being cognizant, you know, again, we're talking 15 years later, and in the world, you know, so do think it's different for somebody that's like just had complete destruction, and now they're like, I'm healed, we're good, now I can go back healing other people. And there is a truth to like a lot of bad actors.
you kind of actively don't do their own work, but claim that they can help other people in a certain way. So I think there is an accountability thread in that. But you're right, I think the salaciousness, the way that, you know, we all have our story, we all have a redemption story, we all have, you know, hopefully one that serves ⁓ a tale for others to not.
to mitigate their risks. But yeah, I think as an industry, we just love to cut down where we can cut down, judge where we can judge, know, highlight. Maybe as a society, right? Like I think, have learned to have such extraordinary compassion for everybody, even people that are just vile. I found this way to go.
Host (56:50)
Yeah, I think it's broader, but...
Molly Bierman (56:52)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Sheila Shilati (57:05)
I need to know more. Like, I can have compassion for why you're such a horrible human, right? But I'm also like, and you also have a choice to be better, right? So anyways, but thank you. I appreciate that.
Molly Bierman (57:16)
Mm-hmm.
Thank you so much. If people would like to find you, will have your information in the show notes. You are the co-founder of the Malone Collective based in Santa Monica, California. We so appreciate you coming on, sharing your experience, and hopefully this will spark some conversation for folks.
and get curious to learn a little bit more. As always, you guys can drop us a comment on our Instagram, on our website, send us an email, and if we can do anything to support our listeners, we will. Thank you so much for tuning in, and Sheila, thank you so much.
Sheila Shilati (57:55)
Thank you ladies, appreciate it.
Host (57:56)
Thank
you.
Sheila Shilati (57:57)
I want a text exchange as to what our next book will be. And Molly, we'll let you pick one.
Molly Bierman (58:02)
⁓ okay.
Host (58:03)
⁓
Molly, are you picking?
Molly Bierman (58:06)
I'm just here for the ride, but don't make me go on the last ride that we went on, okay? Thank you, bye.
Host (58:08)
okay.
Sheila Shilati (58:11)
Very good. You guys are the best. Thank you, ladies. All right. Bye.
Host (58:11)
No, we're off that ride. All right.
