Finding Steadiness in Recovery with Sarah Benton

Dec 9

Episode 24 with Sarah Benton

In this episode of No Permission Necessary, hosts Molly Bierman and Jill Griffin sit down with behavioral health expert Sarah Benton for an insightful conversation about finding steadiness in recovery, in relationships, and in the everyday realities of parenting.

Sarah opens up about the challenges of raising children while supporting individuals through addiction, relapse risk, and emotional stress. Together, they discuss how structure and emotional consistency shape both treatment outcomes and family life, the importance of approaching both clients and children with clarirty, patience and realistic expectations and why creating predictable, supportive environments matters for kids as much as it does for those in recovery.

This conversation goes beyond clinical expertise, focusing on what it looks like to show up as a parent, a professional, and a person trying to stay true to yourself in a demanding world.

Molly Bierman 0:31
Welcome back, guys. Welcome back to no permission necessary. Today's episode, we're going to talk about leading while healing, which I know sounds like a little bit of a cliche tagline, but I think that it's really not easy to walk into spaces with people that are going through the most troublesome time in their life, most of our clients, most of the families that we're greeting on any given day or consulting with on any given day, or, you know, leading a group with whatever it may be, are going through the most crucial, pivotal time to make a different decision, to live in a different way, in a healthier way, in a way free of pain and challenge and depression, sadness, all of it. So, you know, I thought when we were reflecting back on like, what this podcast was going to be about today, I really wanted to talk a little bit about how when we're in a field where the lines become personally and professionally blurred at times, because it's such a passionate position, it's such a calling, I think, to work in this space that we have to tease out in Real Time, boundaries, accountability, trust, burnout, and how do we stay honest with ourselves? How do we continue to grow? How do we not pretend that we're immune to the challenges that we're facing on any given day in our space? And so it was a little bit of a surprise topic, because I put together the the outline last night.
Jill Griffin 2:26
Well, what's coming up for me when you're saying that is all industries I feel like in leadership, because we're human, there are times where we're sometimes leading through pain. Ironically, what what I was thinking about is both my mother and father and their work positions when I was falling apart.
Jill Griffin 2:51
thought about how my mom was literally running for her first campaign as first selectman, so essentially mayor of our town, and they had to, like, come down and rescue me, essentially, and pause everything. And, you know, it's local politics, so it's not the same as, you know something but, but even, like, when you're a CEO or in executive leadership, and you're not really able to be vulnerable in those ways, of like, hey, I can lead. But by the way, my family's falling apart. You know, my daughter, their treatment and so, like, I go back to the it made me think of it, because, like the families we work with, or the clients we work with, we're trying to model vulnerability and show them like to be vulnerable and to be honest with your support and all that stuff, and you talk about how we spend the majority of our time at work, and we want people you know, to hold us up, but a lot of times we have a mask on. I think that happens less in behavioral health, although I do think it still happens. But if you're a leader in any space, I do think there is a mask that we put on, and I found myself doing this in times too, where I probably was not 100% and like, how do we let our team or staff know about that while also leading? It's like finding that balance.
Molly Bierman 4:19
Well, I think it kind of goes back to well one I want to say I can totally identify with what we put our families through when we were younger in our active use, and how brutal that must have been. I can't even imagine, like I Jill and I regularly talk about this, I don't can't even fathom my child doing what I did, and having to survive through that as a as a parent and. And a lot of times when we're working with families, I mean, we are you, we are talking about the 5050, shot of your child making it out of an addiction problem or a mental health crisis, right? I mean, not saying that those are the statistics, but every time somebody takes a self harming behavior, you're either going to survive that behavior or you're not right. So again, I think what, what I think about in those moments, is knowing my family knew that right, knowing that your family likely knew that and still having to go and carry out a job. Talk about survival, right? Just talk about how the body just responds in a way, to survive the task in front of us, right, to be able to just kind of keep pushing forward. But what that really does, emotionally, mentally, spiritually, to the individual, and so I don't know that is, it's so it seems surreal to even think that that was what we put our families through knowing where we are today. And at times I don't know if this is for you, and I think we were just talking about this before we jumped on air. Was that, you know, we still have drunk dreams, is what we call them, or drug dreams. And even being in recovery for as long as we have, still feeling like that wasn't that long ago. You know, I'm coming up on 17 years sober. You just celebrated
Jill Griffin 6:37
16 years sober. No, I will be, I will be in a few weeks. Our Anniversaries are
Molly Bierman 6:43
coming up, coming up on 16 years. I guess I got your birthday confused so knowing that we have come a long way, and that feels like just yesterday, like even thinking about your mom going through that public facing journey of her career and having to know that you were struggling, and you know very much in the rear view. I don't even know how she was able to to walk that walk, honestly,
Jill Griffin 7:18
I don't know. It's not it's one of those things that comes up more, I think naturally at family conversations or I'll be curious, curious about it. I think when it's so new, it wasn't something I kind of asked about or we talked about, right? But I don't know how I think there's a lot of, you know, containment. I think you just kind of put it in a container. You have to, like, leave your, your home stuff at the door. The challenging part, though, is when you're getting that call, when you're in a meeting, or, I mean, she was in the middle of campaign season, so it's like, that's time sensitive. You can't really put that to the side. Yes, I also there is a parallel process between dealing with the stuff at home and dealing with the stuff at clients. From a professional standpoint, we talk about that as counter transference, right, which is when, for those of you who are not therapists, that's something where, if a client is presenting you with something that is almost like it's it's hitting on a personal trigger for you, because it's something you're dealing with in your own life, or you see yourself in them in some way. And so sometimes, like, I'll give an example, if you're trying to help a client through somebody, a cheating spouse, right? And that's the but you've been cheated on in the past, and you're really seeing that spouse as the person that's cheated on you in the past, like you're bringing in your own stuff, instead of being kind of like objective, which is our our goal in therapy, although it's hard to be completely objective in any situation, right? Because we carry our own emotions and experiences in however, I think the differences and kind of what we're talking about today is how you recognize that and still carry on. And I think sometimes you have to recognize there's certain spaces that you can't be in, whether that's client facing, whether that's in a leadership role like sometimes you have to say, like this, I can't do this right now with what's on my plate or with what I'm going through. And that's hard to that's a hard pill to swallow and admit to. On a larger scale, when you have the skill set, but you're just not your head's not in the space to be able to do it.
Molly Bierman 9:47
Yeah, I think that over the time that we've worked in this space, we've rotated through a lot of different iterations of how we show up in behavioral health, right? So whether that's client facing, whether that's staff facing. Whether that's family facing, whether that's in our education, whether that's moving into some level of an internship to get exposure to other different sectors of the space. So when I think about how that has changed for me, I think that there has been times where I 100% could not be client facing, and I needed to be more on the administrative and business side. And then there were times where client facing felt really refreshing, right, and felt really empowering, and working with families felt empowering. So it's it's wax and waned, I guess, to kind of give a personal example, I was, probably, I was, I had been working in behavioral health for probably about six years, and I was a, you know, maybe, maybe a little bit less than that, but I was, I was kind of a lead tech, essentially, and I did a lot with the clients forward facing. So whether that was, I was working at an extended care program for young men and for those that don't know what that means, it's like, basically, they're integrating in their recovery, but also into life. So a lot of structure, a lot of supportive housing, helping them integrate into jobs or back into school or volunteer work, and I was frontline, so I was with the clients a good amount of the day on any given shift, and then doing individual work with them on a case management basis. And I'll never forget it. I mean, I've Jill and I both, you know, and as you stay in this recovery process and continue to make it, you know, the center of your life, essentially, you lose a lot of people. And I remember getting a call while I was at work. I was literally on my way to New York City for a kind of outing with the clients, and we were going to the 911 Museum. Okay, so talk about I'll never forget this day. So first of all, we it's a very emotional museum number one, simultaneously, I got a call that my best friend, who I had tried to help for many years, and who had been a really powerful person in my life, not necessarily the person that you know, the best friend or close friend that I grew up with, but somebody that I met in the recovery world had passed away of an overdose. And I'm on shift. I'm responsible for 12 clients. I'm responsible to go to this outing and I how do I show up as, you know, a grieving person. And so what I learned about that was, and this was a long time ago now, but what I learned about that was, in that moment, I knew that the way that I was showing up needed to shift. I needed to basically take a step away from client facing care, not necessarily right in that moment, I had to carry through my with my shift. I had an obligation. There was no way for me to kind of move around what was happening and what was really beautiful about that process, which I think, when you get stuck in the middle of it, you don't necessarily know how to handle it, because I'm cautious of how much I share with my clients, right where, you know, self disclosure is a much larger topic to talk about, but where it makes sense, or where there's not really an alternative, especially in this situation, they watched me visibly get the call. I'm then with them for hours on end, and the way that they were able to show up and put their stuff aside for a moment and say, Wow, I can't imagine going through that and me also making sure that I'm taking care of them. It was this, like, really beautiful experience where I was able to say, I'm human. This is actually real. Like, what this, what this, what addiction does to people, if left untreated, is so significant and severe, and the ripple effect that that causes. So I think for me, what really happened and for them was that, wow, this is someone who we honor and respect, losing someone, and this just got really real in a very short period of time, like we can kind of all laugh and joke and, you know, kind of laugh about recovery and the things that we did and the crazy stories we had. And this can really take a life. And so what happened for very different, I switched.
Jill Griffin 14:34
It was very different, too, in that role versus a therapist, right? Because I'm thinking about, yeah, you know, you're, you're spending a whole day together, right? You're not going to be able it's different when you're having maybe a 45 or 50 minute session, and I can kind of put this call aside, right? Totally, then, oh, I'm, I'm with them all. I mean, it was the same when I worked in crisis and in internship and stuff, when I'm there in an eight hour shift, right? Like, you're. Your client facing for that whole shift, right?
Molly Bierman 15:04
And there's no meaning when you just lost someone, right? And so, but what that also subsequently taught me was, okay, I am not prepared to go back in fully client facing made it through my shift, was able to show up, keep the client safe, and there needs to be a larger discussion over the course of some weeks, as I was kind of on, you know, unraveling behind closed doors, to kind of say, what is it that I need to be the most effective in my job? I can't just throw everything away like this is something I feel passionate about. I love working in behavioral health, but at times it was conflicting of, how do I show up and also not be resentful at this, this disease, right? This illness, this behavioral health crisis, all of it. And so I was able to take care of me while also honoring the fact that being transparent with my boss and sharing like Hey, I might need to move some things around to be able to be effective in my role. And that ended up launching my career in so many different ways too, so, you know. But is there anything that you feel like you had to show up at work or show up in a leadership role, where you were in a grief process, where you were unsure of how you were going to be able to walk and honor like people's space and time. I mean, as a therapist, I can imagine that's challenging.
Jill Griffin 16:24
So as you were talking, I'm like, I don't have a specific thing, like, externally in my life. And I'll explain what I mean by this. Like, I don't have, you know, losing someone that kind of affected. I don't have I am, I am very able to separate work from home, and I learned that along the way, I think being thrust into crisis work where it's pretty 24/7, I had to learn some pretty quick tools to separate that. And I think if I wasn't in that environment, I don't know that I would be this way now, in with the clients I work with, but I have I'm pretty boundary when it comes to my energy around clients. What I mean by that is, I don't stay up at night worrying about them, right? Like I don't. I kind of like, leave it in the office, right? And there haven't been too many experiences in my personal life that have bled into the client work, however, externally, however, what did come up when, when you threw out this topic is, and you'll remember this very vividly when I went through my neck and my ankle surgery, and subsequently my neck injury, I would say then, in terms of the ankle injury like that, was more easy to be like, Hey, I'm taking this time off. I'm having surgery. That was very much black and white client facing to be like, Hey, I'm going to be off for X amount of weeks. Fine. They saw me in the boot. It was very obvious. Something happened with the neck. I was in this invisible pain for months. Molly knows, because Molly, I mean, I was, I went through it to the point where I was in and out of the emergency room. I thought I was having anxiety attacks. I feel like I've talked about this before. I know I did not think I was having anxiety. I thought my I thought I was having like, heart issues. I was in full blown denial that I was having anxiety. But what was happening was my body was under such stress that I was like, at this heightened state all the time, because I was literally in a level nine out of 10 pain every day, all day, that like my heart would like, I would get these palpitations, and then I would get anxiety about the Palmer patients, and then I would start panicking. And I am not an anxious person, naturally, so it freaked me out. I really do look back with gratitude at that experience, because now I know what my clients are talking about when they experience a panic attack. Because I've never, I've never had one in my life until a few years ago, when this started happening. But anyway, there was like from January 1, because that's when this started, until at least May, June, when there was some sort of relief. I mean, I was just going through it, and I remember having to, I remember coming to the office one day, and I had an appointment within an hour with a client, and having to say, like, I'm just gonna have to tell them, like, I can't see a client right now because I'm so used to pushing through same I will push through, I will show up, I will make it work. And the reality was, I wasn't going to be able to show up for the client in a meaningful way. Feeling like that, I get old space for someone else when I can barely, like just even be in the present moment, you know. But. And I remember feeling really frustrated at that point. And I did, I did tell clients, and they checked in on me, because I feel uncomfortable with that. It's like, I'm here for you, providing therapy for you, you know, like, and that's where the boundaries come in and are really important. But it also, I think, is valuable to show up as a human like, Hey, I'm I'm unable to come in, like, whatever, and I didn't go into it. And even when they checked in with me, I was like, oh, everything's fine. Like, it wasn't really fine, but it's not, it's not my my space right to, like, dump my stuff onto you as a client, that's inappropriate, but they can still know, hey, this is why. Because honestly, on their end, I'm somebody who's consistent. I don't cancel on my clients, I don't move my clients around. I'm consistent with them. That's part of my practice, that's part of my value system. Like, so for me to cancel on a client, they're like, what's going on with her? Like they knew something was off.
Molly Bierman 20:50
Well, I also think this talks, you know, we talk about over identifying with the work right and behavioral health, or losing yourself, and what we call, quote, service. And I think that kind of segues into some of the challenges that we've seen in individuals, and I think that's why there's probably a decent amount of protection and guard. I think you sharing with me that, you know, you don't stay up at night thinking about clients or, you know, worry about them. I would say I admire that, because I think that's waxed and waned for me over the years. Like I think that there's times where I feel I'm really good at checking it at the door, and then there's other times where I'm thinking about them right? If somebody's in Crisis or someone's struggling, you know, the majority of the time I feel like I can compartmentalize, and sometimes I'm not as great at it. But what I'll say is that I had a very lengthy conversation with, you know, a family a few weeks ago, and they were kind of talking about their child's history and what had kind of taken shape in the behavioral health space for those individuals, and what they were really struggling with was that they didn't totally understand how the system worked, and I was basically helping them walk through how someone usually ends up in behavioral health, right? And we've talked a lot about this, someone ends up in behavioral health because they have a passion and a commitment to the their own recovery journey. That's a good majority of individuals that end up working in behavioral
Jill Griffin 22:26
whether it's mental health or substance use, right? They have their own experience with somebody helping them along the way, technically or feeling it.
Molly Bierman 22:34
Yes, and what happens is they see an attractive position that says frontline worker. You can be of, you know, you can help people, whatever it says, right? You know, experience, but passion, you know, some level of tagline around the, you know, around the job. You know, description, right? And these are the following qualifications, which are pretty, pretty minimal. And this is the kind of pay, and, you know, the rate in which you'll work. And what happens is they come in really fired up right to work, and be of, be of, quote, service to people. And everything that I talked about, you know, with this family, and then subsequently, yesterday, in another conversation with a colleague, was that if you are not careful, as someone who works in this space and has for many years, and you make that your quote service work, your passion work, it can be that and your journey is not the per is not the way that that individual is going to get well, right? It may be able to give them a little bit of reassurance. You may be able to self disclose, for a, you know, a quick story that kind of you know, you're able to build some rapport and connection. But overall, when you're walking into a job, okay, for a client who is still suffering in a big way. Maybe they have only been there a couple of days, couple of weeks, couple of months, and they see you walk in, put together, do your job and leave. They cannot relate. And so I think we've gotten into this place of how people end up burnt out. When we really talk about burnout is they're over disclosing over sharing. Don't have any boundaries, don't totally know how to help one another, and they're doing their best because that's what they've been taught in their own recovery journey. But their own recovery journey is separate and apart from a paid position in the behavioral health space, and unfortunately, I think that caused a lot of challenge.
Jill Griffin 24:43
There's also expectation there. And I've seen this a lot with professionals who are also in recovery, where they get into this power struggle with clients around like, well, this is what works. They're not doing what works. It's like, that's what worked for you, and now you're putting an expectation on. A client to do what you did, and I am, and, you know, this is a pet peeve of I think the industry, for me is that I think there's also entire facilities, treatment centers that are that are kind of built on some of that stuff, where it's like, this is the way to do it, which is fine, but you have to be very clear on who you're placing in those facilities, because if you don't buy into that way, like you're gonna have a hard time. And there is also, is it for me, I'm not sure it is for me, there's no right or wrong way to to get into recovery. It. I always tell families, it takes what it takes. My journey is not everybody's journey, but I had to hit a pretty low bottom for me to accept help. And so I think for a lot of people, they look at somebody not doing what's very clear and obvious, as as you know, a clear path forward to getting better, and they get burnt out over this person continuing to make mistakes, to relapse, to not take their medication, to to make Well,
Molly Bierman 26:06
let's talk about control. Let's talk about control. I mean that to me in in the years that I have tried to help individuals and lead individuals, both staff and clients, you can be the message, but you cannot force someone to take your direction, you know, like you just can't. And so I think a lot of times, what I would see myself doing is working harder for a client or family or staff member or otherwise, right? Anybody, even somebody close in my life, a friend, a family member, working harder in some way than the other person was willing to work, and therefore it was also diverting my energy away from probably a good fraction of individuals that actually wanted the support. And so I think what happens is a lot of people kind of put their energy towards, you know, quote, unquote, the problem, right? We'll just say that, or the challenging one, or the challenging person, or the challenging, you know, group, and they they kind of push and push and push, and then they have nothing left to offer. The individuals that are saying, Hey over here, like I want what you're talking about. And so I think for me, that has really started to shift how I show up. I can be clear. Clear is kind. I can be clear, I can be kind. I can be direct. I can be compassionate. I can be educational, I can provide training, I can provide you support, I can provide you mentorship, all of the above, right? And if I can't offer you something that you need, I'll find the right person for you, and you still have to be a willing participant in your own life.
Jill Griffin 27:58
It reminds me, though that some of the biggest struggles. One thing is supervision. We've talked about this on a variety of levels, but those, those frontline staff, rarely get quality supervision in terms of these issues. I'm just gonna throw that out there. When I worked in crisis, my part of the culture shift that the staff had a real hard time getting on board with was I came in and I said, I want one to ones with all the frontline staff. I would come in on overnights. I would I would meet with the overnight staff. They didn't like that, because no one was doing that before. In that way. They had their staff meetings and whatever. But I wanted to meet with them one on one, because you're the one spending the most time with the clients. I need to know what's going on. What are the frustrations? What's going on? And a lot of the power struggles were over clients that had everything given to them. They had the housing voucher, they got their benefits back, they got this, they got that, and then they would go out and relapse, and they could not wrap their minds around, why do they keep doing this, let's stop asking ourselves why they're doing it. Because they have a disease, whether that's a mental health disorder, whether that's a substance use disorder, they have a disease of the brain that is not making good decisions, right? Like they're not capable, in some form or fashion to make good decisions. So asking why is kind of like asking why a toddler picks her nose and sucks her thumb at the same time, like it just feels good. They're doing something that feels good in the moment, like there's no rhyme or reason. It doesn't make sense to us, but it does to them, right? And I relate a lot of alcoholic addicts, mental people with mental health issues, to the way toddlers behave in a lot of ways, because there is no there's not a lot of consequence. They're not thinking of the consequences. They're not capable of kind of looking ahead at that. And they're also not making a lot of sense, like they'll, we can justify anything when we're in a disease place, right? Right, we can. We're in this really delusional, and I'm not talking from like, as a psychotic way, but in a delusional state of, like, yeah, everything's fine when the world's just falling apart and everything's on fire in our lives because of our decisions. And I would really get down to the bottom of it. It's like, I don't know that it's control. I think the staff really, they get invested, and I think it comes, it boils down to they feel really hurt and hurt that their efforts didn't mean something that I think that's part of it, right? I put all this effort in, and now they're not doing it. So there is a feeling of that, being let down, being disappointed, personalized, yes, and also, also, I feel like they've begun to care about these clients, some of our favorite clients. And in that when, when I worked in, in that agency, nonprofit world, some of our favorite clients were the most sick, and when they would do well, of course, you know, really, like, celebratory, yeah, we were, like, behind them all the way, and then when they when they crash and burned, it was like, it, you know, you kind of expected it. But you were, you were, those are the ones where you just, like, think afterwards, like, I still have clients in my mind. I have at least five. I can tell you their names, and I sometimes I'll still see them when I go down, down to that area, down, always like, I wonder what happened to them. Not like, it keeps me up at night, but like. I wonder how they're doing
Molly Bierman 31:26
that experience, right? But that's the human experience. And when we talk about how redefining leadership, not about perfection, not, you know, not about doing it always, right, not about not, you know, getting emotional at times. I mean, I can tell you what, like I have been more emotional now as a mom in front of clients, I used to be stoic, like I could hear that's why I couldn't I could hear anything and be pretty,
Jill Griffin 32:00
right? People a brick wall.
Molly Bierman 32:04
But now even Yasmin called me out the other day. She was like, are you tearing up? And I was like, Yeah, that was such a sad story. Like, I, you know, my my partner, and so
Jill Griffin 32:13
I can I finish? I want to say, though, what I the nugget that I used to have to tell staff, though, is I told them that, listen, we you don't know the impact that you have. This might not be the end of their bottom or their journey, yes, but you are telling you are giving them some crumbs or something you could not imagine the people that I have influenced throughout my life, whether it's staff, people I've mentored, clients that have come back around and told me something that I told them that I've never remembered, never remembered. I don't remember saying to them, but they have hung on to this thing. And we all have those experiences too. We have those people in our lives that you just don't forget that single thing that just like changes something, and sometimes it doesn't, it doesn't change you in that moment, but it's something that sticks with them. And so I would always tell them that, like, we don't get to see the outcome, especially when you're in crisis work, and I think that goes for like, 30 day programs, right? You see them or detox, you see them in the short time. You don't know what happens to them in their life, right? How you change? You don't know where that led them, but you could be a change maker in that moment. And just because we don't see the outcome doesn't mean it doesn't matter, you know. So you really have to look at the larger picture of you know what, what we're doing matters. It's just and you know, you know how it shows up in therapy now is we'll have clients that just don't show up, and they'll no show, they'll cancel, they're just not ready, and therapists are like, but they really need this. No, I get that. I understand that these
Molly Bierman 33:50
there's a lot of people who need it, there's also a lot of people who want it, but there's not a lot of people that do it. So there
Jill Griffin 33:56
could be, we could be really clear with them that we'd love to help them, but they're not showing up, and we're here when they're ready. They're not ready for it right now. They're not ready.
Molly Bierman 34:05
So, you know, we're talking about years of us walking through our own challenges to get to the place where what you're describing right now, okay? And a lot of people who are in the infancy stages of their career, even, I would say, in the first under 10 years of working behavioral health, I would, I would say maybe under five, under 10, somewhere around there. How would you help them? How would you, you know, because those nuggets are good, right? They're, you know, the quick, like, we can lead a horse to water. We can't force it to drink. You know, like all those you know, we're planting seeds. And how have maybe you called yourself out publicly as a leader or in some sort of round or group setting when you're doing supervision that has built trust that you're. Staff actually believe you? Because I think it's one thing to say it, but it's another thing for people to say, Oh, I see her doing that, right? I will watch her do that. I see how she shows up in supervision or in leadership meetings where have been like your face down moments where maybe you haven't done that, and places where you have done that, where they've developed the Trust for you, because that just doesn't come overnight.
Jill Griffin 35:31
No, I think I'm trying to think of, I mean, most recently, how I show up for that is trying to come from a space of slowing down a little bit. And I learned a lot of this from makosi, actually, and I know we had her on as I guess, previously around, like my capacity, so as my role has shifted, and I'm carrying a lot for a lot of people, you know, I'm leading a lot of people, and they're seeing a lot of clients. So even though I'm not in direct client care as much these days, we have a lot of clients that are collectively being seen by all these people that I'm leading, right? So you're, you're, there's still a responsibility there for all you know. And so as you elevate in leadership, your capacity has to expand, whether it's your capacity for responsibility, your capacity for income and wealth and earnings, your capacity for work and family, if your family is expanding so I really took from her. I have to have really boundary time of slowing down to check in with myself and my capacity in order to speed up and expand that. Because other when we see this all the time, and we've talked about this, otherwise, you see people kind of just like in this cycle of workaholism, just like they're not, they're reactive. We're just doing doing, doing doing. I don't want to be a human doing. I want to step back and be a human being. I want to make decisions from a place of calm. And I don't do this perfectly, but I have, I have called out in staff meetings, or said, like, Listen, you know, I made a knee jerk decision because I wasn't in I was stressed out, or I was fearful, or I try to to name the emotion. Because normally, when there's something that I do in a leadership role that affects the staff or that just didn't feel right after the fact. It's like, I want to be able to call that out publicly, whether that's in a staff meeting, whether that's in a leadership meeting, of, hey, this is what I did. This is why I did it, and this is what I want to do differently from here, right? Because I don't make all and I say it all the time. I don't make all the best decisions. I don't even have the best ideas sometimes, like, that's why I rely on all of you to come to the table with something,
Molly Bierman 38:03
I think that we also Yeah, and I think owning those mistakes and also kind of almost stress testing the level of discomfort the staff can tolerate is also important, because you also don't know what's going on behind closed doors with a client, Right like that is an intimate setting to be supporting a client. And so there were a couple things that I would do which made people highly uncomfortable, and what I was taught that would really kind of put the staff in the client shoes. Because I think a lot of times we do have to do that role reversal, because what we're saying is, why aren't they getting better? Why are they getting well? But I want to kind of challenge that thought process and say, Okay, let's just put you through a very basic level of discomfort. And what I would do is, I would have, there were a couple things I did, but one of the exercises that's coming to mind is, what I'll share is that I would have, I would look Jill in the eye. I would have each person, kind of partnered up in the room, and no one else would be speaking except the two individuals that were looking at each other. And they had to make eye contact, and they had to give one reason why they appreciated that person. Okay, so Jill, I appreciate you, because you really helped me to support a client that was really struggling, and I didn't know what to do, and then vice versa, Jill would do the same. I can tell you, that made people so uncomfortable, clinicians and administrative staff to have to lock eyes with someone and make eye contact around something like that without breaking that contact. And so again, it was just a little bit of a stress test to say, Where's your discomfort with your colleagues? Because if you're having discomfort with your colleagues that may be reflective of discomfort with clients that are having something that feels big, something that feels heavy. Days, something that you're not equipped to, that you're not equipped to, kind of suit up for that day. And how are you going to lean into other individuals for support if you can't do a very basic, you know, affirmation exercise, right? And so really, what it showed them was they were they were kind of peeking under the hood, understanding where their deficits are, where their strengths were, how they were going to lean, you know, lean in and reach out, right? And that really helped build the trust and culture, I think, for me, with a lot of the staff.
Jill Griffin 40:37
So it's one of those things. It's one of those things, though, in staff meetings, whether it's those vulnerability exercises or, you know, asking staff to step into that space of providing real feedback, what's going on? I mean, even when we're discussing client cases and, like, I start challenging, like, well, what's the counter transference here? And I'm not, you don't have to say your own personal experience, maybe what's going on with you or but just think about, like, is there something in your own life that's that this is really about? Or, like, what's what's going on here? Why is this so activating for you? And I know that a lot of times we want to externalize it, like it's the client. It's like, no, no. Like, I mean, and this is a recovery thing. Whenever we are disturbed, it's something wrong with us, we have to look at us, what's going
Molly Bierman 41:22
I would say, I would say this, that they would be so dysregulated, especially in the inpatient unit, this client, this client, this, this client, that. And I would, I would say, Hold on. I'm gonna, I'm gonna stop us right here. Time out. This client's been here for 48 hours. Do you think they came to ruin your life? Do you think they looked you up on the website and said, I'm coming for this person? No, this is your own stuff. This needs to be addressed in this setting. So that way you can suit up and show up out on, you know, out on the on the unit. And I think what would what that would show them is, Oh, someone's calling me out. But I will say that not a lot of people do that, because what happens if you don't have someone in a position that's calling that out? It ends up being this layered effect. Oh yeah, that client's tough. I don't want to see that client, that clients challenging. Why are we readmitting that client? And it just piles and piles and piles. So if you create a culture,
Jill Griffin 42:19
not only that, there are some cultures that double down and will kind of kind of get on the staff of like, well, why are you top like? Why are you creating this like reaction in this client? It's almost like you get in trouble for having a client that's reacting like this. It's like, so there's not only not an openness of being able to call yourself and and be able to address it as what it is. It's clinical thing that happened. There's a word for it. This is counter transfer. This is, this is something that happens. It's why, you know. But if it's not like that, it's like this punitive aspect, like, you don't talk about that, because that's not something that's gonna be tolerated here. Like, put your head down, do the work, like, do what has to be done, even so. And don't talk about that. The clients are striking a nerve, like, it's almost like to show up as a robot. It's like, that's not, that's not healthy either, no.
Molly Bierman 43:13
And what happens is, is, if the majority of individuals are on on this side of the pendulum that are saying, this client isn't here to, you know, X, Y and Z, right? We're here to, you know, give to this client, try to see where we can help. And if we have the majority of those people kind of on that side of the pendulum, then the minority of people that are frustrated, resentful, don't really love what they're doing anyway, they're kind of naturally going to fall off, right? So again, you want to be in the herd with the majority who rally, who say, Hey, I know this might be a challenge. And like, How can I support you? How can I help you through it? What is it that I can do that would make this a bit easier? Right? And again, we're not here to change the trajectory of how you feel about it, but we are here to change the trajectory of how you're going to show up to help a client who you may never have the opportunity to help again. And I'll leave you with this because I think it's the most important thing that I say to myself, to people that I've worked with, to Jill, anyone that will listen, essentially, your clients are taking a risk on you. You're not taking a risk on them. That's what I'll say about it.
Jill Griffin 44:25
The only caveat to that is, if you're working in community health care or in a hospital setting, you know, I do think that there. That's why there's high levels of burnout. You get the sickest of the sick clients, and you're kind of told to deal with it no matter what, like you're that's, I think that's what I mean by there are cultures where your feelings kind of get brushed to the side, like, yeah, there's some supervision, and I try my best in cultures, but there were a lot of times when you're told, No, I get that they're challenging. I get that their behavior is threatening. I get that. Are a violent person, I get blah, blah, blah, but you're still going to take them and treat them like, because you're the last house on the block, you're the last like, you're a state agency, you're a hospital setting, like, and in some instances, like, there's been actual violence that occurs, like, there's actual so I think I just want to separate, yeah, that's
Molly Bierman 45:18
different. If you're not having views on policies around that that's something else. I mean, we had violence.
Jill Griffin 45:23
There's policies, but, right, sure, but then where did they go? That's what people don't understand. In private, if you listen, here's what I would say to a new person coming into the industry. If you are going to be a therapist, you really need to go and do some work in a hospital, in a community health center, agency in in, you know, some community with, with, you know, state agency clients, because those clients, they have nowhere else to go. They're not going to an agency like you or I own. We're not accepting and so you can have policies, but at the end of the day, if they need care, they're somewhere that needs to treat them, no matter what their past is,
Molly Bierman 46:12
yeah, of course, of course. But that still has to be. You still have to have the same mindset to be able to treat the client where you're not personalizing it, you know. So
Jill Griffin 46:26
I just think it becomes harder in those I just want to, I just want to recognize that for anyone that's listening, because I in those settings, because I do think if I was working in those settings and putting myself back in that place, like, yeah, I don't have a choice. I'm told, like, by the state that we're taking this client,
Molly Bierman 46:43
yeah, yeah, absolutely. So when we think about in the last couple minutes, what I think a nice way to end would be, what part you know, what part of us is calling for healing, and I think that for me, on any given day, it's really just being mindful of what's mine and what's not, and how to identify and evaluate that on any given day, because a lot of times, I think it can start to intertwine at a rapid speed.
Jill Griffin 47:20
Mine has just been being present in the moment. You've helped with starting me get back on my meditation recently. But going back to the beginning of the episode, I think I'm in a place right now where my direct client care is probably going to be at a standstill for a little while going into the new year, bold, just a bold statement to say out loud.
Molly Bierman 47:48
So permission to
Jill Griffin 47:54
permission to say no, if you need to. That's my that's, you know,
Molly Bierman 48:02
I think so. No is a complete sentence.
Jill Griffin 48:05
No is a complete sentence. Because when you're talking about burnout, when you're talking about all those things and in healing, sometimes those boundaries need to be really firm. And saying, No, you know, is a complete sentence.
Molly Bierman 48:25
Until next time. Guys follow us at no permission necessary, on Instagram, on our email website, drop us a line. Any topics that you'd like to hear and get excited for some additional fun guests coming your way through the end of the year, until this time