Friendship & Leadership Boundaries: When Someone You Love Becomes Someone You Lead

Episode 19 with Jill and Molly

When someone you love turns into someone you lead, what happens? Molly Bierman and Jill Griffin, hosts of No Permission Necessary, are open about one of the most challenging aspects of leadership: handling friendships at work. They discuss personal experiences, lessons learned, and the emotional side of leading through change, covering everything from establishing healthy boundaries to compassionately making difficult decisions.

This conversation provides perspective, grace, and growth, regardless of whether you've battled with difficult leadership decisions or the fuzziness of friendship and professionalism. Keeping everyone happy isn't always the goal of true leadership, it's about leading with integrity.

• TRANSCRIPTION

  Molly Bierman 1:11

  It's a it's like five weeks this month. It's a long month, yeah, well, I mean, I'm kind of glad, because then I went back to look at things, and I was like, Oh, I haven't done this yet, but it's still the same month, so I feel like, justified.

  Jill Griffin 1:25

  Well, this was a little bit delayed going out. I don't think it'll go out. It'll probably go out early October to everyone, but,

  Jill Griffin 0:00

  Some days I feel like I'm I'm off the path. You gotta be like, you gotta be like, I am that bitch. Sometimes you gotta look like, No, I'm a boss. Like, there is something to be said for those affirmations in the mirror. Sometimes, like that to me. Sometimes you gotta throw on the song that's gonna be like, Yeah, yep, that's me. I foreign.

  Molly Bierman 0:35

  Welcome to no permission necessary, the podcast that empowers you to prioritize mental health, personal growth and authentic leadership. I'm Jill Griffin and I'm Molly Biermann. We're here to help you thrive professionally and personally without ever asking permission to put yourself first. Let's get started. Guys, Welcome back. Welcome back. If anyone is in question of that, we're still in the month of September. I'm here to report that we are. I'm slightly confused.

  Jill Griffin 1:32

  yeah, I don't know. I'm still feeling summer vibes. That's technically summer didn't start until yesterday.

  Jill Griffin 1:41

  You mean fall, or I mean fall?

  Molly Bierman 1:45

  Well, you know, I did have butternut squash ravioli last night for two nights ago.

  Jill Griffin 1:50

  That's not, that's not it

  Molly Bierman 1:54

  for me. But we were, we weren't ready yet. I had butternut we wanted to be ready, but we weren't. And then I kind of like regretted just having a lobster roll, you know?

  Jill Griffin 2:04

  Yeah, so we actually went to Lenny and Joe's. We went to Lenny and Joe's over the weekend.

  Molly Bierman 2:08

  Oh, we love a little Lenny and Joe's with a little with a little carousel action. Yeah, yeah, carousel. Did the kids go on the carousel?

  Jill Griffin 2:19

  Okay, all right. Was the box instead? No, we went to Ashley's. Oh, okay, well, that hits, yeah, always, but they had pumpkin ice cream. So I'm just gonna let everybody know that pumpkin ice cream that that is not it. That's the jam.

  Molly Bierman 2:38

  So you're a pumpkin spice latte too. Is that what it's called?

  Jill Griffin 2:42

  I actually just put a couple, I just put a couple pumps into my hot Americano. I don't the full PSL is, it's overwhelming. It's too much sugary. I can't do it well,

  Molly Bierman 2:54

  you just have to ask for half the sweetness. Hot take

  Jill Griffin 2:58

  or just put two pumps in your venti Americano, sure. It's not even noon and I'm drinking a Diet Coke. So that's if everybody needs I've only

  Molly Bierman 3:09

  had one cup of coffee this morning, but I'll tell you, I said to Sam, I was like, this shit was rocket fuel. I am the guys, just to do a brief check in here. We're gonna keep it brief. We got a tight turnaround today on this episode, but I was telling Jill that I was really, really struggling the last couple of weeks because there was a lot of travel, different time zones, whatever like space I was able to do that in, in a previous life. It is not this life, okay, it is not this life. I took two weeks to recover, and I just worked out today for the first time in almost two weeks.

  Jill Griffin 3:45

  But time out, you also haven't had a coffee machine.

  Molly Bierman 3:50

  No, I have the coffee I have a coffee maker. Don't put me on blast. On here, our nice coffee maker, our nice coffee maker, which is very nice. Has there been a commission situation?

  Jill Griffin 4:04

  There has definitely been a coffee situation. Yeah.

  Molly Bierman 4:07

  So, like, I can't just go hit the button, but like, I could just make another pot.

  Jill Griffin 4:12

  Okay, there's been a lack of coffee some mornings. And if that's the reason why you're not working out, I'm not sure. But when we talk about getting accountability from our friends and colleagues, and you know, you can't really get that accountability if you're not really sharing where you're at. So that's what we realized this morning, is that Molly has been withholding that she has not moved her body or exercised in two weeks now, which that tracks with why she's been struggling with her energy level so much

  Molly Bierman 4:43

  and sleep and just everything. So we're back, guys. In case you were wondering, the rocket fuel

  Jill Griffin 4:49

  is coffee times exercise is what is actually happening.

  Molly Bierman 4:53

  Yeah, and I probably honestly have been lacking because I haven't seen my favorite fitness influence. Or post any videos lately, either shout out Zach, since her, Oh,

  Jill Griffin 5:05

  I thought you were talking about Ian.

  Molly Bierman 5:08

  Well, you know, like he's, he's a regular, he's, I'm numbed, definitely posting. I'm numb to him so I see it and I'm just like, I'll never be where you are. So moving on. But Zach is more relatable. Yeah,

  Jill Griffin 5:20

  really good segue to what we're talking about today, which I think Zach may struggle with, which is imposter syndrome.

  Molly Bierman 5:35

  So good guys, we're talking about seasons of imposter syndrome as a parent, as an employee, as a leader, as women in recovery, men in recovery, come one, come all come. Sit down and talk about imposter syndrome with us today. And you know, I think that when we hear the term imposter syndrome, what comes to mind is feeling a lack of worthiness or a lack of ability or an inferiority, all the above and so 100% maybe give an example of where you have felt impostor syndrome. To really paint a picture, because I think it's a term that's kind of thrown around a lot, so maybe something that's a little bit more digestible for people to say, like, Oh, that makes sense, because I'm not sure people use it accurately all the time.

  Jill Griffin 6:28

  Well, essentially, imposter syndrome is feeling as if you don't belong in some certain community or space, despite having the qualifications to belong in that space.

  Molly Bierman 6:43

  Very good definition. Did you just

  Jill Griffin 6:44

  pull that out? I did that. My example would be when I was first stepping into, like a professional role as a social worker. So I have my bachelor's in social work. So when I graduated with my bachelor's in social work, there were certain jobs that I was qualified for with my BSW, whether that be I was in like a case management role at that point, and then I went in to get my master's. But I remember feeling like because of my past, because of the things that I experienced, that it was like an impossible especially because I was working with clients coming out of jail, I was coming out of people I was I was working with individuals on parole, coming out of the out of incarceration, and yep, in my mind, I was like, Okay, I'm only a few years out from this myself, so like, it is this to me, I was like an imposter, like they don't know. I think it also has to do with can other people see my deficits? Because even though I was qualified from an education standpoint, it's almost like, Oh, they're gonna find out that, like, I'm not really good at this thing or that, like, I don't have or that I was just where they were four or five years ago. Like, I think that's a big part of it too, because we know our whole selves. But in a profession, I think that also we want to present our best selves with, course, deficits,

  Molly Bierman 8:18

  right? I think you want to present your best self in a lot of areas, without the deficits, relationships, intimate relationships, friendships and or otherwise, right? But I also think that when you're living with some sort of imposter syndrome, what happens, at least, my experience, is that it almost is like I'm not doing enough, right? I have to, like, over achieve, to show that I am worthy of this role, right? And or this position, or this conversation. And I think a lot of times, what happens is that, I think this goes back to a previous episode. At times, making yourself small became really normal or consistent. And so when you're in this space of breaking the next ceiling, if you will, right, given your example of being incarcerated, coming out, recreating a life, and then then going on to help people, well, firstly, let's talk about like, epitome of purpose, how awesome, right? Like, that's a huge, huge deal. And really getting to the place where you can say, I have made it to this next step. I do have something to offer, and I can still be relatable. So I think what happens with the imposter syndrome is getting caught in what was rather than what is, at least. This is my experience, especially working in behavioral health, like getting caught in, oh, I have a similar experience to you. So there's this.

  Jill Griffin 10:01

  Well, you get counter transference. It's called counter we make your stuff about me and vice versa. You know, where we kind of get reminded of, I think the word triggers on is overused. It's more of. It's more of. I'm now reminded of where I used to be when I was in your shoes. So sometimes, especially in behavioral health settings or counseling settings, it's like, but I think this can happen in any if you're a mentor mentee relationship, it's like, Oh, I've been where you're at, so I have, I know how you can get through this. But like, We're different people, so like, what works for me may not work for you, and vice versa, right? We actually, we have similarities, but there's still some differences in like, what we're capable of, right? I also, I, I feel like a lot of this comes from a place of wanting to over achieve, in a way to fulfill stuff that's maybe missing from you internally. And what I mean by that is from, I'll say it from, like a trauma lens, people, typically, who are having either imposter syndrome or feeling like they're not good enough, or that they haven't yet achieved some level of, I don't know, success or whatever. The thing is that they're that they feel like they don't qualify for, they're, they're constantly striving for this like, epitome of what that means, like, oh, well, if I just get this degree, or if I just get this certification, or if I just have X amount of clients or earn X amount of money, then like I won't feel like an imposter. And I would argue that it's really something internally that you have to own, because it's not, it's not either or it's not either I'm a professional or I'm not. It's I'm a professional, and I have more things to learn I'm a professional, and I have these things that I need to work on, because we're always evolving and growing. I don't think anyone, before they die, reaches some place of perfection in human being, like accomplishment. I think we always have something we can work on,

  Molly Bierman 12:14

  yeah, and I guess you know, when we think about it, there's a lot of folks that are pretty high functioning that still wrestle with it, right? So I can say that I actually just had a check in with a colleague and friend today, and having to fact check my own imposter syndrome at times. You know, am I good enough? Am I capable? Am I qualified, am I? I mean, these are just some of the, like, basic, you know, questions that come up. I've really grappled, you know, from an educational standpoint, right? There's been my path through my education and through my experience was not linear, right? I did not get out of high school and go to college right away and get the, you know, get the job out of college and, you know, so on and so forth. Right? My path was a little bit more windy. And when I was sharing with my colleague today, who was also grappling with some of that, you know, self doubt, self worth, self you know, self inflicted pain, I'll say, because when we keep it trapped and don't allow to bounce it off someone, then there's nobody to fact check you, then you're just kind of in your own head, right? And that's really where all of the things that we've been talking about on this podcast brew, the victim mentality, less than, you know, feeling less than about yourself, not, you know, not cultivating connection. So for me, it's kind of all wrapped up into the same space, right? It may come out a bit different, but if I call Jill and I say, Hey, I'm really grappling like, am I capable of building this business? Am I capable of, you know, helping this, you know, client. Am I capable of being a parent, right? So that's kind of another way that it shows up. Then I have another sounding board for someone to point out. Hey, these are the things you may be struggling in, but these are also the things that are going really well, right? And it just level sets well.

  Jill Griffin 14:20

  It goes back to Brene Brown's work about kind of exposing shame, with connecting with other people and with sharing, right? Because I think when we when we share our experiences, and we kind of say what's going on, we can learn from other people. That's how I learned to have more confidence in where I was at and not be in that imposter space, because it's like when you step into a leadership role in owning a business, unless you're talking to other business owners, you think that the challenges that come up that just really floor you at times where you're like, Whoa, I didn't I made a huge mistake, or I didn't see that coming. Or you think like you're the only one experiencing it, and that's what shame really is, right? It makes you feel like you're the only one experiencing it. You feel bad for something that you've done. You feel like you're you are wrong as a person, like something's wrong with you versus I did something wrong, which is guilt. Shame and guilt are totally different, and so once I start talking to other business owners, or I go to them with my problems and humble myself of like, hey, like, is this normal? Is this like, what? What have you been here before? Like, then I learned from other people, they can be vulnerable with me that. Like, yeah, that happened to me. And sometimes it's a financially costly mistake. Sometimes it's just like an ego costly mistake, where it's like, Ooh, I have to, like, eat some Crow, either with staff or investors or my, you know, whatever. I think there's just some like, so. But I think the point is, though, is that you think you're the only one, and so if you continue to struggle with imposter syndrome. I think it's because you're keeping yourself stuck. Either you're not listening to other feedback that you're getting from other people and you just require ongoing validation, which I would say is

  Jill Griffin 16:10

  her issue,

  Jill Griffin 16:13

  and or you're not seeking that out, so you're kind of stuck in a silo of your own thoughts and just and that's keeping you stuck in a different way when it's when it's an internal thing where you require validation from a trauma lens. I I would say that that's more of like a negative belief that you hold about yourself that needs to be worked through, probably in therapy.

  Molly Bierman 16:39

  Well, I think we talk about the pendulum swing, right? So I can only share from my experience, but I'll tell you that for a good portion of my life, I needed a lot of validation from a lot of people, right? And there was this lack of authentic connection and lack of confidence in my relationships. And so what happened is that I lowered my standards in a lot of ways. And I've actually been able to have, like, a big full circle moment in the last couple of weeks, kind of talking with another woman who went through a similar scenario as me, right, lowering my standards, feeling like I had to behave in a way to, you know, connect with another individual and really not honor my value or my worth. And that went on for a period of time in my life, right? And now, the pendulum I feel like, has swung the complete opposite direction, right? So it's there is this middle ground, right? I think some level of imposter syndrome is fairly normal and helps us grow and achieve and can be utilized as a catalyst for good, right? It's kind of the vehicle that helps you fact check yourself and say, Where am I? Am

  Jill Griffin 17:57

  I on the right path? Yeah. I mean, if you just stick around thinking you're the best at everything all the time, that's, that's the end, that's, that's another you're a narcissist. I mean, you can't just walk around thinking you're the best at everything all the time, because it's probably not true. And if you do like, you need another set of like, humbling experiences, right?

  Molly Bierman 18:15

  Yeah, but I think it's interesting for the validation piece, because at times I that's not my go to, right? Because I think my own internal barometer is if I need validation from somebody that puts me back into this, like, part of my life where that was really important to me, right? So what I've noticed is that when I actually do check in with someone authentically, and I do check in to get a little bit of like, hey, where am I here? And it's not even for validation, but more so a sounding board. But in turn, I receive some validation. I'm like, oh, that's actually really nice. Like, I kind of did need that, right? So being aware of what is needed at any given time to break some, you know, some cycle or some internal hamster wheel that I'm caught on has been really crucial.

  Jill Griffin 19:01

  Well, I think that there are people who are who are motivated internally and externally, right? And so I think there, and there are some people who naturally need more external validation than internal validation. I think it's just how some people are wired. For me, I'm and I think you can probably relate to this too. I just think of, I've always been somebody that if I decide I'm going to do something full stop, I am figuring out a way to do it. There's no failing in that. Like, it's just me figuring it out. It doesn't mean that I don't have failures along the way, but, like, I'm going to get to that end result. And I don't require a lot of, like, external motivators or people saying, like, you're doing a good job for me to get there, like, I don't,

  Molly Bierman 19:49

  right? But there are people that really do need that.

  Jill Griffin 19:52

  There's people that have a little are more naturally either, you know, self have self doubt, or they just. Require that in a different way. It doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong. I just think if you rely on that all the time, then your sense of self and who you are depends on what other people are thinking about you at any given moment. And that, I think, is a slippery slope,

  Molly Bierman 20:17

  yeah, well, I think this is a really great segue to how this shows up in parenthood, right? So to give a bit of context, there was a lot of hesitation for me. I think I had imposter syndrome being a parent from the minute I got pregnant. I would say before I got pregnant, I think I had this innate ability to be, have this like maternal instinct to help, right? So I could help other people. I could lead with purpose. I could connect with others. I've been able to connect with other children. Feel like I have that empathy, and when it came to me delivering that for my own I felt very hesitant, and I think imposter syndromes showed up in a way that was I felt like I was enough in my job, and I didn't know if I was going to be enough as a parent, right? And so that dual role really kept me struggling up until my son was born. I mean, I do remember, and I think I've mentioned this on a previous podcast episode, that my director of admissions at the time looked at me and she's like, you know, you're having a child like in the next week. And so there was Yeah, and there was this level of pressure. What's that going to look like? You know? Because you hear a lot of talk, right? Everyone has opinions. You're not going to want to work, you're not going to want to do this, you're going to want to be at home. You're going to want it. But I could give you a million different things that people shared with me, and I will say people probably shared a little bit less with me than the average, because I think there is some level of guard up that I have, but

  Jill Griffin 22:00

  I'm pretty sure you're gonna want to go back to work when, trust me, yeah.

  Molly Bierman 22:06

  But I think that yeah, and there is this level of when I did, can I go back to work and show up as my best self and be a mom, right? So I think there is just a lot to explore and how imposter syndrome shows up. So I guess what I would ask you is, did you ever feel like you weren't enough as a parent, even though you had the evidence as otherwise? I think I already know this answer, but

  Jill Griffin 22:34

  I don't feel like this shows up a lot for me. Honestly, I that's not to say that there aren't moments where I'm like, Oh, I really didn't handle that well. But again, I I view that as a growth opportunity, versus me being self deprecating in that moment of like, Oh, I'm the worst. I'm not I'm not enough for my kids.

  Jill Griffin 22:58

  Like, I will say that

  Jill Griffin 23:03

  from birth until basically school age, so zero to five, I felt really competent and capable of connecting with my kids like being in attuned with them. I there. I don't know. I just not to say that, like, sleepless nights wasn't hard, or they're, they're, you know, balancing that with work. It's not that none of it was hard. It's just that I think I had a realistic expectation of what that was going to look like. I didn't, I didn't, in my head think, Oh, they're going to sleep at three months. And when they didn't like I was all spun out about it. I was very much go with the flow, which is not necessarily a trait that I have, but with the kids. I don't know. My husband pointed this out the other day about like, how I'm just very, I'm very in touch with them. I The kids hug me all the time. I hug them. I'm very like physical with the kid, like, I'm not like that in life, like, don't I'm not. I don't want you approaching me.

  Molly Bierman 24:08

  It's just not. So the next person that sees Jill after this episode should definitely give her a hug. That's amazing.

  Jill Griffin 24:14

  But like, my kids are all over me, like they and at times, that does become a bit much and overstimulating, I would say, now that they're school age and we're coming across these issues where maybe I have my own experiences, like, I'll, I'll say for to have like a child, a girl, a daughter, in middle school right now brings up my experiences in middle school as a girl In middle school, right? And so sometimes now I see myself feeling more like falling short in terms of like, Ooh, did I handle that right? Because now there's like other kids involved. Listen, girls are assholes in middle school, and I feel very compelled to share that with my daughter and make sure she understands that, because I don't want her to be seen as one of the Mean Girls. But also. So I have to recognize that she has her own process. And like, my daughter's not an asshole, but like she could be, I don't know, like I wasn't until I was or maybe that's just how I always I always was. I don't know, but in terms of a growth opportunity, and why I phrase it that way, is because in those moments when I have that gut reaction. Maybe I was short, maybe I wasn't handling things. Maybe I flew off the handle. Like, I tell my therapy clients all the time when they come in here and they feel that mom guilt or parent guilt, like, Ooh, I didn't handle this, right? I flipped out. I, you know, I made them go to bed by themselves, and I could hear them crying, and I just I couldn't be there for them. If you think that us as therapists are showing up as, like, the perfect parent all the time because we have the education and the knowledge of, like, what's right and what's not, none of us are perfect parents. Like, I flip out. I lose it. Granted, I generally give a warning. Like, if you guys don't listen, I it's gonna happen. I'm going to flip out like there's typically a warning. They don't heed that warning, fine, then this event happens. However, the most important thing, and I'll never forget this class when I was in my master's program, was about this study around good enough parenting. We have to be good enough parents. And I think maybe that's why it stuck with me, because that was I was pregnant when I was taking that class. Taking that class. I can remember that article. I can remember for some reason, we had the class in a Starbucks. I can remember the professor. I can remember where we were. But like that study and that class, stuck with me because it's not about being perfect, it's about when you flip out, when you lose your shit when you do something that you don't it's not really the great, greatest example for your kids that you are able to go back and say, Hey, Mommy, mommy wasn't her best self. Mommy should not have yelled like that. And you're modeling then how to apologize and how to say, like, hey, that wasn't my best. How can I make it better? Like, how are you feeling about it? You're opening up that vulnerable conversation with them. So like, maybe that's where my background in, like, as a therapist comes in where I don't, like, beat myself up over it, but that doesn't mean there's not moments, but I think that's different from feeling like you're a failure as a parent.

  Molly Bierman 27:22

  Well, I think that that goes back to this past weekend. There was this moment where my toddler was like, don't fight right, talking to me and my husband and we were in a conversation that we were probably, you know, bickering about something. I don't know what it was,

  Jill Griffin 27:39

  and in any marriage is, I'm sorry, but you're

  Molly Bierman 27:43

  not. I will tell you, I don't know if that's good either, sure, but it stopped me dead in oh yeah,

  Jill Griffin 27:49

  oh yeah, because, because that is a mirror.

  Molly Bierman 27:53

  I was in a spiral. Okay? I was. You talk about unfair self criticism, talking about good enough parenting, I mean, all of it. And I made a conscious decision. I texted out the text. I actually sent this to Jill. I texted out the text to tell you what happened, and I deleted it. And I was like, I'm not telling anybody this. Like, this is embarrassing. This is like, you know, the shame, the fear, all that sort of stuff. You tell and then I was like, I did eventually, but it wasn't after a few rights and deletes, okay?

  Jill Griffin 28:28

  And what did I say?

  Molly Bierman 28:31

  You said it, I've been there, and how you talk about it after is where the repair comes in, essentially, you know, I'm paraphrasing, but you basically were like, Yeah.

  Jill Griffin 28:42

  He was probably like, Yeah. He had moved on. He had moved on completely.

  Jill Griffin 28:49

  But that's why it's important for us, too to have the repair, because we'll I now messed up my kid now that we try to over achieve and do all this stuff because we're not a parent. Meanwhile, he has forgotten this conversation never even happened, like, well,

  Molly Bierman 29:04

  and I think that goes back to the imposter syndrome too. Like, if I had kept that internally, talk about imposter syndrome. Not a good enough parent all the things, right? I'm a parent. I shouldn't be a parent, right? Whatever, all the and I'm not saying that I would have been full send for days on days, but being able to sit with it, acknowledge it, it is possible, but sit with it, acknowledge it, and then offload, offload it to a degree, to get feedback. I mean, I think that's really the key. So when we think about, you know, how do we move through an imposter syndrome or a sticky situation in any role, that's, that's what I got, guys. I mean, that's the only thing that I know to do, is fact check it with somebody else and get some clarity, right? Because, you know, I'll go back to what I said, you know, some episodes ago, and it's a tried and true lesson that has stuck with me for years and years and years that I learned from a, you know, from a. A person in in recovery that said, I have a clear perspective on your life, you have a clear perspective on mine, but we don't have a clear perspective on our own. And so when we're struggling with perception and we're struggling with understanding, like where we are in our own space, that's where we need the outside view, you know. So it's my hot take for for this episode.

  Jill Griffin 30:25

  I mean, in terms of us having seasons of this happen, I go back to, what are you doing to take care of yourself on a daily basis? Like it goes back to routine. It goes back to the basics. It goes back to, you know, this is a recovery phrase, the like, hungry, angry, lonely, tired, like, you know, when we're in those spaces, we're typically not showing up in our mind. We our perception is even more off. Like, if, I mean, you know, like, just from like, sharing about not sleeping well over the last couple weeks. Like, when we're not sleeping well, our thinking tends to be a little shittier, like we end up not being in a good perspective on life. We are short with ourselves and others. We're not as forgiving. We're not as able to maybe tap into our spiritual practice, our fitness practice, like the things that keep us rooted and grounded, right? I've learned over the years, and you're more than welcome to take a page of my of my book. But I travel a lot. I like to travel, but what I don't like is the hangover from traveling. So I have learned to stay on somewhat of a routine when I'm traveling. Now that looks different depending on what's going on, right? Molly and I were just out in California together. I think we were both rocked from the time change when we came back, truly did not go well, and I couldn't have prepared there was the only thing I could have done differently, is get a different flight. I feel like back the

  Molly Bierman 31:57

  time, there was no preparation for an eight hours sitting in LAX for seven hours in a and I have feedback for lax, if anybody wants the you know, talk about feedback. Talk about complaints. I mean, I have feedback for the airport lounge, subpar restaurants, not good, not

  Jill Griffin 32:19

  so there is two and a half miles I walk two and a half miles to the terminal. Granted, I may have missed a turn somewhere for a shuttle to that terminal, but when i the whole time, I'm thinking, thank God I'm able bodied, because I don't. I mean, I saw this woman walking with a child all these things. I'm like, I thought of you and your TSA experience, because exactly I said to her at one point, I said, Did we miss a sign? I said, this is to this is a two mile walk. Am I? Am I? She goes, No, it's, it's very far away.

  Unknown Speaker 32:52

  This is not it wild.

  Jill Griffin 32:54

  So anyway, but the point is, is that like staying on track while I'm traveling, meaning like I work out maybe not as much or as hard, right, but I still move my body, I still do my journaling, I still do my prayers, because it becomes much harder to get back into that routine when we get back and I'll tell you, you want to talk about imposter syndrome and not feeling good enough or worthy enough, like it's hard for me to get out of my routine step back into the shit at work and just like, pick up where I left off, and feel like I'm competent and capable, because I'm in a season right now of tremendous transition, of, like, self doubt and some things that I may I probably did not do well, and I've had to really show up in a vulnerable space with my staff and management and be like, Hey, this is on me, I think. And my irritation is showing up in different ways, where I have to be like, I'm actually irritated at myself right now, guys, and I just have to own that, like, because we didn't have to be in this space, but I kind of waited too long to make a decision, and now here we are.

  Molly Bierman 33:57

  And so what did you learn from that?

  Jill Griffin 34:01

  What did I learn from, from the from which part of it from? Well,

  Molly Bierman 34:06

  it sounds like what you what you're describing, what you're describing is you waited too long in a situation with, with a staff member, yeah, with a staff member. I think, you know, we get in a place of comfortability, right? And we also get in a place of, you know, don't, you don't have to fix something that's not broken, right? Even though it, it is probably broken, but you're it's some semblance of glued together.

  Jill Griffin 34:33

  So we have grown three times from where we started, and in terms of volume of clients, of staff, all of that, when you do that, the systems that you start with are not going to be systems that work when you 3x your business, right? I know this logically. I consult with other people and. I helped them change their systems. I And so I think what happened is I became very comfortable in things working a certain way, and being like knowing in my head what a pain in the ass it was going to be to rock the boat on that. And so I waited to make a decision until there was no longer I no longer had a choice. I had to now step in and rumble with this. So what that means is, so my biggest lesson is, there is actually no good time for that to happen, because whether it was now, whether it was four months ago, six months ago, a year ago, I would have the same problem and workload on my plate like I'm going to have to deconstruct some systems, I have to put I just there. It just becomes a lot of administrative work that, frankly, I don't want to do, but I have to do, right and and also, I think now is also the perfect time for it to be happening, because now I have connections to some solutions in a different way that I wouldn't have had if this happened six months ago too, right?

  Molly Bierman 36:06

  So, yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, kind of goes to show the shift that we have in leadership, especially from being in the room to owning the room, you know, or running the room, if you will. And so a lot of times we have to be in connection with the people about us. But then there's also times where we really need to lead the room, right? And at times, at least from from my experience, I've had some pretty significant face down moments where I've allowed things to go on longer than they should. I've, in, you know, kept employees on longer than they really probably should have been there, and how I was able to wrestle with some of that self doubt was, how do we own it, like you just said, take accountability and say I made a mistake. And then also, you know, getting to once you've made at least for me once, I have embraced that I made a mistake, I share that. I don't sit on it right. Then it's moving on. Now. How am I going to embrace my authority, my role, my position, to now raise to the next level? Right? That's

  Jill Griffin 37:16

  where imposter syndrome is dangerous, because I think there are leaders. And I think this, I don't even think this is gender specific. I think what happens is when you make a mistake and you have to either have that face down moment in front of staff, which is what I'm kind of living in this week, right? And again, I don't even know that they would perceive it to be that way, but for me, it's like, No guys, this is on me like I failed, because we don't have to be here, but we are here now and and so again, I don't think that the staff perceives it that that way, necessarily, but I know that this isn't how I want our mission and vision to be, you know, right? Play out, right, right. So, so anyway, if you make those mistakes, or these things happen, or somebody leaves the company, or somebody gives you bad feedback at work about your leadership style or or whatever, the thing is, imposter syndrome is dangerous. If those moments lead to you feeling like I'm not good enough, I'm not worthy of this role, I doubt that. I don't you know that self doubt kicks in. Of, like, I don't think that I can actually do this, versus what we're talking about, what you're talking about is, like, I step into action, okay, how do I solve this now? Like, let's there's still that repair, there's still that acknowledgement of, like, this happened, let's not externalize that onto but like, I also have to wrestle with how I feel about it sometimes, right? So I actually just saw this video that somebody posted online, and it was like, if you're always getting feedback about what your tone is and what you're how you're showing up giving feedback to people, you may have to look at how you're feeling, because it's not it's not like how your voice, it's not the volume of your voice, it's not what you're saying. It's that you haven't checked your emotional state before delivering this message. And your irritation, your anger, your anxiety coming out, whatever it is is coming across in your tone. And everyone in the room feels it so like that's another thing I've been grappling with. And kind of like, oh, you know, in terms of my middle managers being like, Hey, I'm irritated right now. And I feel like I just need to state that so everybody knows. Like, I'm not irritated with you, I'm irritated with vit XYZ, because I do think it shifts at least where people aren't like, left leaving the room, like, What's her problem? It's like, well, I've already told you what my problem is. Like, this is where I'm at right

  Molly Bierman 39:37

  now, yeah. And also just embracing that and being able to be honest about it, but then also, you know, what's the next step? Right? Because there's always a next step. And like you said, the imposter syndrome really, really becomes the stuck point when you, yes, haven't done anything different, right? It's kind of like you're just stuck in that. You. Gray area that you haven't really made a move forward or back. So I think, you know, in the last couple minutes, I really wanted to talk about, and I think this is an area of our life that we don't talk about as much. I think it comes and weaves in and out of our conversations. But, you know, in the infancy stages of getting into recovery, getting sober many years ago. How did you know when we talk about imposter syndrome? I think that's probably not the first time I experienced it, but it's definitely the time where I had to experience it sober, which isn't, you know, I think for a lot of folks who are in recovery. Primarily, what they did was use alcohol and substances to not have impostor syndrome,

  Jill Griffin 40:48

  right? To be separate from your feelings, right? You don't. Yeah,

  Molly Bierman 40:50

  to be separate from your feelings, but imposter syndrome not feeling like you fit in, not feeling a part of not feeling like you're connected to your friend groups, not feeling like you're connected to your family, like all the different examples, right? And those are just to name a few. So in early recovery, showing up in a community, at least for me, of young people that were really, you know, there's always gonna be people that are more tight knit than you, because there's been people that have been around longer than you, and there's always gonna be people behind you that also feel like you are more connected than them, right? So there's this ripple effect that occurs in the recovery community, and I remember stepping into those spaces, and honestly, I definitely felt like there was a sense of unworthiness and imposter syndrome around the genuine nature of people in recovery, right? That I was showing up in a space that felt way more sacred than I deserved, right? I think that's probably where my imposter syndrome showed up the most. Right? Was like, I don't belong with any of these people. These people are

  Jill Griffin 41:56

  glowing compared to what I have been living in, what I'm doing

  Jill Griffin 42:01

  feeling right now,

  Molly Bierman 42:02

  yeah, so I think that's probably where it came up for me the most. But I, you know, I'd be interested to hear how it showed up for you in the infancy stages.

  Jill Griffin 42:11

  Well, I can remember, and I think this happens a lot in recovery, where you show up in a room. The first time I tried to get sober was in Florida, and I remember looking around different people and saying, I'm nothing like these people. They're talking about DCF cases and getting children taken away and being arrested and and, you know, I compared myself imposter syndrome, essentially, is just, I mean, we're just comparing ourselves other people, right? Like, and so I compared myself out of the room like I that wasn't, I'm not like these people. I must not be an alcoholic. Fast Forward, forward. Fast forward to when I came back and into recovery. It was actually flipped. It was like, Oh, these people's story are nothing like mine, because I took a deep dive into all those things that I said I would never do and like, I think, you know, I think there's definitely that part of I don't think I'm ever going to be like these people in terms of what they experience now as being grateful for being in recovery. Like, I never understood that, but I think women, I think women, I think it's a different experience for women in recovery, because a lot of times you're in rooms that are full of men, and yeah, I'm sorry, but depending on your story, as a woman like our our stories just we there's different layers of things that we deal with in recovery than men do, and I think they're not always addressed, nor should they be in a mixed setting. And I just feel like, I don't know. I just remember that there wasn't space for me to feel bad about that either. I remember early in recovery, people saying, You're not that special. Go help somebody else. Right? Like, right. So basically, if you started to express that you were feeling some sort of imposter syndrome, or no one cares, go help somebody like that's kind of was which I needed that message. I didn't need 100% I didn't need somebody validating me. It was like, Yeah, who? Or you could just do what you were doing before, if you want to go back to that like that, that option is available

  Molly Bierman 44:20

  as well, yeah, you know. And I think that, you know, we talk about, how did we stay grounded, and how did we find our self worth, and how did we combat imposter syndrome? And a lot of it was consistency, right? So I think that, you know, leaning into a community creating, you know, you know, we talk about 12 step communities, and they have things called sponsors. Anyone can replace that with a mentor or otherwise, right? If you're not in a recovery community, but we had people that we were bouncing things off of regularly to stay present, right? And I think half the battle with imposter syndrome is that you're thinking about what was or what it's going to be, right? Right? And so again, it's really taking you out of that present moment to say I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be. And when you get early, doesn't

  Jill Griffin 45:10

  make you like that, though, no, like that, but, but objectively speaking, um, right, Be Where Your Feet are. Yeah, that doesn't mean

  Molly Bierman 45:20

  that is drilled in, drilled in, drilled in, drilled in, so again, it kind of level sets it level sets the road right. And I, and I'm so, so grateful that we talked about this today, because I think it brings me to a place where I remember my principles, my values and my moral compass, right to say I'm on the path. Some days I feel like I'm I'm off the

  Jill Griffin 45:46

  path. Oh, you got to be like, You got to be like, I am that bitch. Sometimes you gotta look like, No, I'm a boss. Like, so there is something to be said for those affirmations in the mirror. Sometimes, like that to me, sometimes you gotta throw on the song that's gonna be like, Yeah, yep, that's me, yeah, little Rick, Ross.

  Jill Griffin 46:10

  I love Rick. You know what I'm talking about? You know what I'm talking about, of course, permission slip.

  Molly Bierman 46:17

  I think this week's permission slip is exactly that you know, Be Where Your Feet Are, be in your present be in your present moment, Be Where Your Feet Are, because, honestly, fear of what was, or fear of what is, it's not coming to save you. You know so being where your feet are just really absorbs your ability to be present takes you out of all the fears, out of your headspace that you know continue to haunt us at times. So yeah, if you're struggling with imposter syndrome, if there is anything that you'd like us to talk about, any topics, we have some love upcoming guests. Yeah, we have some fun upcoming guests in the coming weeks. So be on the lookout for that. Send this to a friend. Send it to somebody you think that would enjoy it. Give us a like, give us a follow. Subscribe to us at no permission necessary, and we will see you next time.

  Jill Griffin 47:11

  Bye.

  Jill Griffin 47:15

  Thank you for listening to no permission necessary. If you enjoyed today's conversation, please subscribe, leave a review and follow us on Instagram at no permission necessary for more insights and inspiration.

  Molly Bierman 47:27

  Remember, success is personal, and greatness never asks for approval, and neither should you. No Permission Necessary is produced and edited by the team at Palm Tree Pod Co. The content for this episode was created by Jill Griffin and Molly Beirman. Social media support from social chaos and PR support from ghost pepper.