Holding Space for What Hurts
Episode 24 with Michelle Macolino
In this episode of No Permission Necessary, Molly Bierman and Jill Griffin are joined by therapist and practice owner Michelle Macolino for a timely conversation about loneliness, intimacy, and connection in the age of screens, social media, and constant curation.
Drawing from Michelle’s 20+ years of clinical experience, the episode explores why young adults today are reporting unprecedented levels of loneliness, how curated online identities are replacing real connection, and why vulnerability now feels riskier than ever. The conversation also expands into parenting, leadership, and relationships, examining how technology, dating apps, and social comparison are reshaping how people relate to themselves and each other.
Together, they unpack the difference between feeling “close” online and being truly connected, the rise of fear around intimacy and rejection, and what it actually takes to rebuild trust and emotional safety in real life. This episode offers insight for young adults, parents, clinicians, and anyone navigating modern relationships while craving deeper, more authentic connection.
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Jill (00:00.174)
actually already started my 2026. do, you ever heard of Gretchen Rubin from the Happier podcast? So I listened to her podcast, it probably is four years ago now, but every year I choose a word that's like my theme for the year. And then, and then this year's is curiosity.
Michelle Macolino (00:07.419)
Yes.
Molly Bierman (00:18.781)
what's this Sears?
Michelle Macolino (00:23.422)
that's really good.
Molly Bierman (00:24.729)
Wow.
Jill (00:24.91)
Last year, 2025 was connection, which I feel like I really thrived with in 2025, but it just like brings me back to like, this is what I wanna be. But I also do like a sort of like a bucket list. So like I started this in 2022, I think, where it's like 22 things I wanna do this year. And some of them are like, have a girls night, complete a craft. Like it's not these major things all the time.
Michelle Macolino (00:46.769)
huh. Right.
Right. Yeah.
Jill (00:53.486)
And then I like going through and like, what did I do? What did I like revisit it through the year?
Michelle Macolino (00:57.064)
So I think I started it in 2023 and I called it like an intention list. Cause I was like, new year's resolution feels like, yeah, I don't love that. So it was an intention list and you know, it was, it was basically for me, like, like milestone based, but yeah. And then at the end of the year, I love to like see like what I hit, what I didn't. And so for 2025, a podcast was one of them. So yeah, and here we are.
JIll (01:04.171)
I hate it.
Molly Bierman (01:24.197)
And here we are.
JIll (01:25.442)
We love to get an intention in before, right at the buzzer.
Michelle Macolino (01:26.62)
Yeah.
Definitely,
Molly Bierman (01:33.145)
And you can always throw out an intention for next year on the pod because I feel like everything that now with the podcast, mean, Jill and I have talked about this is if we speak it into existence on the podcast, we actually have to abide by it. And so this year there was an intention for me to really hone in on holiday shopping before. Usually I would start now, like this week and really be jamming it all in, you know?
And I'm basically done.
Michelle Macolino (02:05.328)
That's amazing. Yes, I totally agree with you about like saying it out loud, calls it in. You know, I joke with my clients that like, you know, I'm into the woo a little bit, but really it's spiritual psychology. And so I absolutely agree. And actually I had said to Jill too, that like for 2026, something I'm trying to speak into existence is to really get my New York City office booming. So I just that.
Molly Bierman (02:12.495)
Yes.
Molly Bierman (02:19.172)
Yes.
Molly Bierman (02:34.305)
okay. Yay. Let's talk about that too. Well, yes. Amazing. So Michelle, you've been in the field for over 20 years. When you look at young adults today, what do you feel like stands out about young adults in our current climate? I think a lot of what we talked about and we did a little prep call before this podcast is that's primarily the population you work with. You also have young adult children.
JIll (02:35.074)
Let's go.
Michelle Macolino (02:35.388)
Yeah. So there it is. I just said it.
Michelle Macolino (02:44.541)
Yes.
Michelle Macolino (03:03.857)
I go.
Molly Bierman (03:03.959)
And so, you know, tell us a little bit about what you're seeing in the young adult population that has really been either jarring or exciting for you.
Michelle Macolino (03:13.694)
I do, I see a lot of young adults. Currently, it's probably my favorite population to work with. I think they're in such an exciting time. But a lot of what I do see, sort of sadly, is a fear of intimacy, a lack of connection, especially interpersonally, and sort of this just heightened loneliness.
Molly Bierman (03:33.529)
Yeah.
Michelle Macolino (03:41.288)
like I find them to be lonely on like another level. And there actually is research that does say that like young adults today are like lonelier than even like 65 year olds. So who are empty nesters?
Molly Bierman (03:57.828)
who are empty nesters who don't have children in the home anymore, not working.
Michelle Macolino (04:01.817)
Right. Maybe you have lost a partner already. you know, families are grown and young adults are starting out. And I recall being in my, you know, twenties and like.
Molly Bierman (04:04.856)
Right.
Michelle Macolino (04:15.905)
having the time of my life and feeling like every day was just so much fun. of course, that didn't mean that there was no stress, right, in school and all the things, but like, fun was a big priority. And I think part of it, I think that they don't have as much fun, but I think it's bigger than that.
JIll (04:36.62)
So can you give some examples for people who are listening who have a young adult child or maybe it's a therapist listening and they see young adult clients. What does that actually look like? What are clients saying to you? What are you hearing that is a signal of like they're actually lonely?
Michelle Macolino (04:56.957)
I'm seeing less romantic relationships, fear of romantic relationships, less actual connected friendships, more online and social media usage, which feels connected, but is actually an illusion of intimacy. And they're very, they don't. So that's where.
JIll (05:20.706)
And they don't recognize that. You have to explore that.
Michelle Macolino (05:25.083)
That's where it is. It's that they feel close because they talk online. They game, right? And I have the piece in, my friends are talking and we're gaming. And that feels in some way like a relationship, but we're not really connecting, right? Close versus connected. Close is like, I could be physically next to you, but connected, trusting you is feeling like you hear and see me, feeling like you get me, right? When I say to my young adult, and when
Molly Bierman (05:46.667)
on.
Michelle Macolino (05:54.961)
When I'm saying young adults, I'm speaking like, I guess, 18 to 30-ish. When I say, who really knows you? Most of them say no one.
JIll (06:03.832)
Well, I think about when you're alone, I always think about nighttime because to me it's like that's the time where that loneliness sets in, but it could be any time of the day. But when you're alone at night and you're by yourself, who could you call if you feel like, I don't feel good right now. Like I'm having these thoughts or I feel sad or I, cause I can name, I have a whole hand of people that I can call and be like, dude, I just need to talk right now. But that's what's missing.
Michelle Macolino (06:13.662)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Macolino (06:21.789)
Right.
Molly Bierman (06:23.319)
you
Michelle Macolino (06:31.07)
Well, I'll ask even a further question. Like, what if you're in an emergency, right? You're talking about like, I'm feeling like sad and with my thoughts, like I'm talking like, what if it's an emergency? Who could you call? And most 30 year olds would say their mom, but that's like because their car broke down. But like, if I say like, who would you call if you were like struggling with your thoughts?
Molly Bierman (06:54.784)
And.
Michelle Macolino (07:00.65)
Most people would say I have no one to call. Most of my clients that I'm seeing would say really no one.
JIll (07:07.426)
How is that connected to shame?
Michelle Macolino (07:11.454)
Well, it's vulnerability, right? So like being really vulnerable, being afraid to like express that like, I'm really sad. I'm struggling. I feel not alone, not enough alone.
JIll (07:13.719)
Yeah.
Michelle Macolino (07:28.59)
sad, right? All the things that it's the vulnerability is heightening the shame. And it just feels so risky, right? Especially because we live in this culture of like curation. So everything is curated for them, right? They go online and everything looks perfect. And they're putting together these very controlled, very curated images for the world to see. So then to be one on one and to show you my vulnerability,
Molly Bierman (07:42.474)
Right.
Michelle Macolino (07:58.417)
which I cannot then curate and control, feels so scary, so filled with shame, right? And like that is a slow progression, right? Like we can't, we don't typically meet someone and just start saying like, so when I was five years old, this thing happened, right? But sometimes young people do because of the safety of the screen. They get close fast, but they're not connected.
Molly Bierman (08:18.257)
Okay
JIll (08:28.738)
Well, I would take it a step further. I would take it a step further though, because if you think about online spaces, whether it's texting, whether it's those curated experiences, everything's documented. So I think there's also a fear of like, well, if I say this, am I being recorded and it's gonna be uploaded somewhere? Is a picture of what I text going to be put? And I think like the online bullying and all the comments and all the, I do think there's a fear around that in terms of the vulnerability.
Molly Bierman (08:29.099)
Do you feel like?
Michelle Macolino (08:56.221)
Yes.
JIll (08:57.824)
I'm not just going to be exposed to this one person. I'm going to be exposed to the internet or the, my community.
Michelle Macolino (09:01.446)
Yes, but I'm talking about actual like reach out and touch it, like sit with someone in real life. That is the scariest thing.
JIll (09:10.572)
That feels very, very awkward to this generation.
Michelle Macolino (09:11.782)
That feels so right. cannot think of like behind the screen I could pause, could think, I could type out something, I could erase it. But one on, I think it's the one on one that just feels so, so scary. However, because of the online, they think they're close to people, but they're not connected to people. And that's what I see.
Molly Bierman (09:39.253)
When you think in terms of the curated environments, what came to mind when you were discussing that is that curated environments are also, I feel like, handed to the children by their parents. You know, so many parents are looking online today at, I'll just take something that feels relevant in this season, which is the elf on the shelf.
Michelle Macolino (10:06.397)
Yes.
Molly Bierman (10:06.689)
And the elf on the shelf is curated in so many different ways, right, for young children. And parents putting so much energy into the elf on the shelf, which I think is in, you know, as a concept is really cute. But I think what happens is that it takes over curating this excitement for children day in and day out for a month or whatever it is. And it really doesn't stop there, right? You're curating the environment to go on.
Michelle Macolino (10:11.07)
Yes.
Michelle Macolino (10:30.866)
Alright.
Molly Bierman (10:36.318)
you know, guilty of this. mean, curating the environment to take them on these excursions and these, you know, extravagant, you know, trips or, you know, bringing them, you know, these birthday celebrations that are so much larger than life. You know, I mean, I'm guilty of it. I mean, I did an extravagant birthday party for my son when he turned one and he was horrified. He cried the whole time. So I think that there is this
Michelle Macolino (10:50.822)
I was thinking her thing. Yes.
Molly Bierman (11:04.66)
culture that we live in is not only social media is curating to the algorithm, yes. And I mean, everything that we do, I even yesterday, I signed up for, you know, a service that curates clothing, right, that you can do rental and you can switch up and never wear the same piece twice. And I feel like there's a curation that's so much larger than just, yeah.
JIll (11:08.63)
It's for the gram, it's for the gram.
Michelle Macolino (11:28.862)
And like, and that, there it is. And like I see all the time, like I'm so grateful that like I got married and had babies before Instagram because I 100 % would have been bought into all of that. Like, you know, but what you're talking about though is this like, this compare society. That's what it is. It's because we see it online and then we feel bad if we don't have it or do it. it drives, it's really, it's marketing really, but like it's, and then we do it.
Molly Bierman (11:41.416)
Right.
Molly Bierman (11:57.993)
Yeah, of course.
Michelle Macolino (11:58.853)
And it's like that compare despair feeling. and our kit, my, so I have three teenage daughters. This is like, they're growing up and they're seeing. I tell them all the time, they think I'm such an old lady, but like in my day, I read like 17 magazine and like maybe there was like an article about, know, whoever was cool then. And I would read about like her life. They are seeing the lives. They're seeing their bed.
Molly Bierman (12:14.685)
Yes.
Molly Bierman (12:26.493)
in real time.
Michelle Macolino (12:27.432)
They're seeing their houses, they're seeing what they eat for dinner in real life, in real time. And it makes it feel almost attainable.
Molly Bierman (12:39.039)
How do we?
JIll (12:39.192)
Well, I don't think we're having honest conversations about all of that. Like I'm just thinking of like the elf on the shelf. Like example, our elf, our, yeah, it doesn't, yeah, it will. Cause you know what? You're to get peer pressured into it because he, your son's going to come home from school. Nope, nope. It's going to happen, Molly. I put money on it. It's on the podcast now. You'll have one. You'll have one. So I said I did that for a long time, but now I have the elf.
Michelle Macolino (12:45.214)
Okay.
Molly Bierman (12:47.401)
doesn't live here, I'm going to tell you that right now.
Michelle Macolino (12:53.168)
Exactly.
Molly Bierman (12:54.202)
One of Bodhi's friends came over.
One of Bodhi's friends already came over. He already came over and he said, where's the elf? I go, the elf doesn't live here.
JIll (13:08.536)
They'll come back, this kid's elf did this, ours just move around. Yep, that's what this elf does in this house. Like, I don't know what to tell you. I am the least influenced, okay? I'm not doing anything outside of what I'm capable of doing and doing all these scenes and all the, not happening, okay? The elf just moves.
Michelle Macolino (13:16.456)
Right.
Michelle Macolino (13:29.308)
Right, that's what my elf did, but to be fair, there wasn't this much about that. Now the elf comes out and he stays where he stays. He doesn't even move anymore, but I have 15 and 17 year olds, But he still comes out.
Molly Bierman (13:45.447)
Yeah, right. But so I wonder, you know, we're in a time where this is normal. Okay. And so we're in an ever changing landscape with technology, social media connection. So part of me says, Okay, this is a problem. How do we connect young people? How do we connect even adults? Right? I think this applies across the board.
Michelle Macolino (14:11.418)
Not unique. Yes, of course.
Molly Bierman (14:13.021)
But how do we also acknowledge that this is normal, like as far as having access to technology? So what do you suggest when a young person is feeling this level of disconnection or inauthentic relationships or not enough vulnerability? How do they proceed when this is also part of their life? It's not something that they can just remove.
Michelle Macolino (14:37.071)
And in fact, I wouldn't encourage them to remove it. It's not going away. And I think if you remove it, you isolate even further. And just before I get into that, ultimately what the...
Molly Bierman (14:39.933)
Right.
Molly Bierman (14:44.913)
Right.
Michelle Macolino (14:49.798)
The fear here is, I feel like I should mention this, is the rejection piece, right? Is that, right? Like that's why it's like, if I show you who I really am, if I'm vulnerable, if I expose my shame, then I'm going to be rejected on such an extreme level that this is just so dangerous. It's so risky. And I think, you know, now in terms of like, how do we heal that, right? It's a, like, it is a risk, but it's taking the risk in a
Molly Bierman (14:54.494)
I'm not.
Michelle Macolino (15:19.552)
slow measured way, which we have completely lost because we go online and because it feels safer, we do overshare. We do expose quickly, right? I have young people and they're talking on dating apps and they're like telling and they're very quickly sharing so much, feeling very close, but that's not
Molly Bierman (15:45.486)
Good.
Michelle Macolino (15:47.081)
how we build intimacy. actually build true intimacy really slowly. And what do we know about young people? They are in a rush all the time. And they don't like to be uncomfortable, and they want things yesterday. And...
Molly Bierman (15:58.109)
I feel like that's also goes for adults. mean, I think Jill and I have talked a lot about this. Some of the emails or some of the communications we have received from staff members.
Michelle Macolino (16:12.903)
Yes.
Molly Bierman (16:13.978)
on a level of oversharing with a level of comfortability to have with someone who may be a new hire.
Michelle Macolino (16:16.028)
Yes.
Michelle Macolino (16:21.15)
We have gotten so comfortable with, and so like, and I had said that earlier, if I just met you, I should probably not be telling you about my childhood trauma, right? That's just not like first, not even date, just first meeting. It is, yes, it is.
JIll (16:37.878)
Yeah, but it's normalized on TikTok and right, like all these things about, and that also translates into them coming into session saying, diagnosing themselves and this is what I have and.
Molly Bierman (16:41.777)
weird.
Michelle Macolino (16:48.446)
well, first time diagnosing is so over. yeah, I have a kid right now, think like, I mean, every day they diagnose, I'm like, I think we're up to like 14 diagnoses. I'm like, okay, let's.
Molly Bierman (16:50.088)
yeah, there is or my boyfriend was a narcissist or yeah.
JIll (16:53.985)
Okay.
JIll (17:03.982)
Like, don't worry, I just went, got a master's degree to be able to do this, but I'm glad that you were able to do it in a 30 second TikTok. I'm, that's great.
Michelle Macolino (17:08.19)
Yeah, thank you. That TikTok has cured you. Yeah, and chat GPT. Exactly. I mean, I think that is like, you know, the like, definite beginning part is to slow it down, which is uncomfortable, which they don't like. But that's the work. Like that's the therapeutic work for sure, is just slowing it down and explaining like the normalcy of like relationships.
Molly Bierman (17:12.408)
and Ciao GPT.
Molly Bierman (17:16.657)
Yeah.
Michelle Macolino (17:36.559)
should build over time, right? Solid, secure relationships are the ones that slowly build and there's trust and there's safety and there's security. We don't get that in a week and we don't get that when we're shot out of a cannon. And there's the problem though is like the maladaptive behaviors that they use, which is like the dating apps and the social medias and you know, all of that, it is built.
to be fast and furious and intense. And when you're young and your brain lights up on that, that's intoxicating.
Molly Bierman (18:07.662)
What?
Molly Bierman (18:11.697)
Yes. What about, you know, something that just came to mind and I know that I've had the experience of feeling potentially safer behind a screen doing, you know, my own, having my own, you know, therapeutic journey. How do you feel that telehealth has maybe compromised the ability to experience that with a client where they can actually be in the room and sit with a clinician and start to almost role play?
what it would be like to have conversations with other people in their life. Because I do think there is a big protective factor when you see clients virtually, and I don't know how much of your practice is virtual versus in person, but I feel like people show up differently on a screen than they do in person.
Michelle Macolino (18:53.502)
path.
So I would say about half my practice is virtual. And I agree with you that there is definitely a protective quality to it. And I feel like I have still been able to do that.
still been able to have those like hard conversations. Role play is a big one and sort of break through like that discomfort of like, you know what, like sometimes we need to pause. tell people all the time, like, you know, sometimes the best thing you could say is silence. Like, and that is just like an art that people don't understand saying nothing is saying a lot, but they feel like they need to talk, talk, talk, talk. And listen, I'm right. Like you said something before,
I'm totally guilty of if someone sends me a text message, my knee jerk is to respond immediately. I don't know why. But I try to slow it down and be like, you know what? I don't need to respond immediately the second the text message comes in. But that's an anxiety response, right? That's what that is. Young people have that times a million.
Molly Bierman (20:03.899)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
JIll (20:09.196)
Well, Jonathan Haidt talks about that in the anxious generation a lot, right? He talks about they did studies on how many notifications a young person gets at any given day while they're also trying to learn in school, while they're also trying to do homework. How are you supposed to stay present? And then meanwhile, we're diagnosing all these kids with ADHD. Is it ADHD or is it the technological influence of having notifications? And that's something I know for me, I don't have any notifications on my phone.
Michelle Macolino (20:17.212)
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Michelle Macolino (20:32.146)
Yes.
Michelle Macolino (20:37.724)
Yes. Right.
JIll (20:38.026)
I have ADHD without that. Because if I'm constantly being notified all day, I'm just going to get distracted and not being able to do anything. Because I'm just going to be respond- I'm reacting now. I'm not responding.
Molly Bierman (20:47.034)
Do you your text notifications on or no notifications at all? No notifications. I don't have any notifications, but I do have the notifications on for text messages, but that's it. Like no social media notifications, no email notifications.
Michelle Macolino (20:52.542)
Like that
music.
But I do have my hair.
JIll (21:02.53)
I mean, I get the bubble. I get the bubble with how many texts, but I'm not getting like the, on my screen. No.
Michelle Macolino (21:06.632)
that you're not getting.
Molly Bierman (21:07.237)
You're not getting it on the locked screen. You're not getting any.
Michelle Macolino (21:10.204)
Yeah, like that actually makes me anxious to think about it.
Molly Bierman (21:12.699)
Whoa, I am gonna change that. I feel like that is probably a game changer.
JIll (21:18.39)
Yeah, like if I can't respond, I don't need to see it, because I can't respond right now.
Michelle Macolino (21:18.502)
I also sleep.
Michelle Macolino (21:23.472)
And by the way, there was a time where like we didn't have 24 access to people and we all survived it. And we did just like, you know, like this, this idea that we need to have 24 access to people has created also this false sense of closeness, like an urgency, like, well, can get you whenever I want you. And I also think that we send mixed messages to young people about screens because we
JIll (21:38.922)
and urgency culture.
Molly Bierman (21:41.243)
Urgency, yeah.
Michelle Macolino (21:53.149)
tell them how bad it is and we tell them to stay off it and we tell them all these things. And then we had kindergartners Chromebooks and it's just like, well, that feels contradictory. And then, I mean, my kids now in high school, everything is, they don't get a piece of paper ever. Everything is online, every, right? So it's like, I feel, but then like, it's like you're on your screen too much. You know, it really is a very mixed message.
JIll (22:19.852)
Yeah, I think that-
Molly Bierman (22:20.57)
also seeing the parent, who I'm guilty of that. I'm saying, no, you shouldn't watch TV and let's go play. And then I'm on my phone.
Michelle Macolino (22:25.223)
Me too.
JIll (22:26.924)
And then I'm on my phone.
Michelle Macolino (22:28.958)
when I'm on my phone.
JIll (22:30.102)
I do think that the research coming out of the anxious generation though, and some of the discussions around the interventions that he has proposed, which is really banding together as a community. And I know that I've had conversations with parents in my community of, my child's not gonna have a phone until high school. We will consider a phone in high school and social media, my children know.
Molly Bierman (22:50.284)
Right?
JIll (22:56.162)
They do not get social media until they are an adult. 18 years old, they can have their own social media account. I have friends tell me that that's wild, that's not gonna happen. if you ask my kids right now, that's like just a normal conversation that we've been having for years because the research behind social media and child development is just so horrendous. I'm not willing to take that chance. And if I have control over it, then I'm gonna use that control. My children have iPads. They know they can't use it Monday through Friday.
Michelle Macolino (23:15.847)
it is.
It is.
JIll (23:26.146)
They don't even try to. My daughter now will have some phone conversation. She'll FaceTime a little bit during the week, but they don't, they're not on that screen. They watch movies. They watch so many movies on the TV and that long form storytelling the research shows is like so much better for their, the TV is not the issue. Think about how much TV we watch growing up, but that long form movie is again, slowing down. have to learn. have to wait till the end to see. It's not a 20 second video after video.
Michelle Macolino (23:35.251)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Macolino (23:45.714)
Right, it's not.
Molly Bierman (23:46.368)
Yeah, right.
Michelle Macolino (23:55.547)
Exactly. that death, it's that death. honestly, I'll be honest with you. had to, I started reading The Anxious Generation and I had to stop because my children are the generation he's talking about. And so it actually made me so uncomfortable and so anxious that I was like, for my own nervous system, I can't read this. But I actually do get it.
Molly Bierman (23:56.739)
So scary.
Michelle Macolino (24:20.889)
I'm way past the point. My kids have had social media since, they got their phones, they were actually, they were on the later side. They're 17 and I have 15 year old twins, so they got it in fifth grade, which was late at that time.
JIll (24:35.234)
And that's what my daughter's in, fifth grade, yeah.
Michelle Macolino (24:37.552)
Yeah.
Molly Bierman (24:37.919)
What was so what was the challenge in reading it like what you know, here on our podcast, we like to ask the hard questions. So what was what was the hard part of it?
Michelle Macolino (24:43.56)
Well, yeah, sure. So they, well, just the data about what social media does to the underdeveloped brain in general, but the part about it, it's funny, because I did go to my kids and have a real conversation about this, because I was panicking, is the kids born...
in that I believe it was like 2006 to 2012, which my kids were born in 2008 and 2010. They were the first generation of kids to go through puberty with a front-facing camera. And so they went through puberty publicly. So everybody, they posted online and they basically showed the world the most disruptive.
uncomfortable, confusing years of their life and that there was no turnoff valve. And what he says is whether you got the likes of how beautiful you are or whether you got the dislikes of the you're so ugly, both are equally damaging.
JIll (25:58.625)
It's so funny that that's what you took out of it, right? Because you have children of that age. That wasn't even something that resonated with me. It's like new information. And I read the book.
Michelle Macolino (26:05.638)
Yeah, that's where I stopped reading. That's where I was like, and now I have to put this book down. That was the part that like made my heart start to race. I was on a plane. We were actually going on a family vacation and I literally think I had a panic attack on the plane.
Molly Bierman (26:28.556)
Wow. Was it your own, was it your own like shame and guilt as a parent? Were you feeling that or was it more so that this is just something that exists and this is something we have to live with now because it impacted our children or both?
JIll (26:29.628)
wow.
Michelle Macolino (26:43.056)
It was both. was partly my shame as a parent that like, I'm not, I'm going to really be honest and come through the front door. Like I remember musically was TikTok was musically before it was TikTok. And I think my kids, my oldest daughter was like in seventh grade and I was like, Gia, you should get musically. Like, look how fun this is.
JIll (26:54.829)
Yes.
JIll (27:04.91)
But we don't know what we don't know, right?
Molly Bierman (27:06.06)
Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Macolino (27:07.002)
And I didn't, exactly. And she was like, she wasn't asking, I went to her with this. And now it's TikTok and it's a whole other story. But there was that shame. And then there was this other part of fear of unknown, just predatory, have my kids been exposed in a way that I don't know?
Molly Bierman (27:14.712)
Yeah, so you provoked the idea, yeah.
Michelle Macolino (27:34.559)
And that was the conversation that, you know, to with them and I said, girls, like, I have a lot of questions. And maybe the questions should have come before the book, but the book provoked the questions. honestly, I'm very fortunate that, like, I feel like my girls kind of were smart about it. Like, we always spoke about, like, the dangers of just, putting yourself out there. And I was always very honest with them about certain safety things, like...
Molly Bierman (27:36.524)
Right.
Michelle Macolino (28:03.004)
you know, never have anything that says like, never wear your sweatshirt that says like your town or things that like I just knew to be mindful of, you know, like make sure that you're not tagged in a location. So I did feel like I had already. Right. Yeah.
Molly Bierman (28:15.672)
Yeah, the location sharing at all times. These children share their location with everyone. And I know even couples that do that, and I'm not knocking it. It's not something that I've ever felt the need that I needed to do with my partner to have like location sharing on. But I was at the, I was in New York yesterday and the day before, and I wanted to go with my brother who is much younger than me. He's 12 years younger than me. He's the baby of the family.
Michelle Macolino (28:27.816)
Yeah. Right.
Molly Bierman (28:44.437)
his girlfriend and we were gonna go see the tree. And his girlfriend was coming at a different time than us. And so I was like, where is Basha? And he was like, let me, and he just looked at her location. I'm like.
JIll (28:54.858)
He just looks it up.
Michelle Macolino (28:59.761)
Yeah, so I have this.
JIll (29:00.142)
no, we come from the generation where I'm at a friend's house sleeping over, but I'm somewhere in another town, okay? Like, come on.
Michelle Macolino (29:04.722)
That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Yeah, that's exactly right. So I tell, I say it to my girls all the time, because I have my daughters on location, but I said, unless I birthed you, there is no reason for anyone to have anyone's location, right? Like, unless I gave birth to you, like, I really think like that's like, you know, but they know where their friends are at all times. And
Molly Bierman (29:05.003)
Totally that is like I'm not giving anyone my location. I don't care how well I am
Molly Bierman (29:26.091)
Great!
Molly Bierman (29:31.455)
And that's also part of it, feeling left out and like not invited to the parties and all of that.
Michelle Macolino (29:33.439)
And that's it, like, snap, snap, like the whole thing. And like then, so that's a whole other part of like, just, I think that, and I think that feeds into, like to kind of circle back, right? It feeds into loneliness, rejection, abandonment. Like if all of my friends are together and I could see it and I'm home, like that, you know, that's gonna create a sense of loneliness, you know? And I think it is weaponized by the way. don't, I think, yeah.
Molly Bierman (29:47.272)
Right. Right.
JIll (29:58.318)
to you.
Molly Bierman (30:00.992)
course.
JIll (30:03.022)
So there's the whole, I'm very fortunate, I feel like, because as a therapist, I hear about the dating apps and what dating is like now. And I just am very thankful that I met my husband before I had to engage in a dating app scenario, because I'm lost. I mean, I hear about a new one, I feel like every month. I'm like, didn't, what's this one? know? So.
Michelle Macolino (30:19.442)
Yep. Yep.
Michelle Macolino (30:26.886)
Yeah, for sure. Right, absolutely.
JIll (30:30.95)
I feel like that has compromised our ability to have these real world conversations. But I'm wondering if you, this is probably gonna be a random question, but it's a new term for me. Have you heard of incels? Involuntary celibate people.
Michelle Macolino (30:50.718)
yes, I don't know that I've heard it called, God bless you. I don't know that I've heard it called that, but okay.
JIll (30:57.526)
I went down a rabbit hole. I'm gonna, God bless you.
Molly Bierman (30:59.761)
What is this that we're talking about? Can I just sneezed and I feel like I'm confused. Can you repeat the term?
JIll (31:06.254)
In cells it's an it's a I don't know what what is that called? Some sort of term involuntary celibacy Involuntary celibacy, which apparent I think is mostly men But I went down a rabbit hole I don't know where I saw this but it was a it was a forum For incels. I don't know what the don't ask for the URL cuz I don't know and I honestly don't even know how I
Michelle Macolino (31:14.707)
Yeah.
Molly Bierman (31:15.198)
shortened.
involuntary celibacy, okay?
Michelle Macolino (31:23.516)
men.
JIll (31:35.938)
went down this rabbit hole, but it was disturbing. It was.
Michelle Macolino (31:37.562)
Okay. And they're saying involuntary, like they don't want to be.
JIll (31:43.458)
They don't want to be. They want to have intimate relationships with women. Or men, I'm sure, in some instances, but they feel like they can't. Please, please, because...
Michelle Macolino (31:47.644)
and they feel like they.
Molly Bierman (31:49.974)
Okay, here, I'm going to give you the definition. Okay, I just looked it up. Involuntary celibacy or inceldom is the shortened version, describes the state of individuals who desire romantic and sexual relationships, but are unable to find a partner despite their efforts. While the experience of unwanted celibacy affects people of all genders and sexual orientation, the term incel,
JIll (31:59.982)
Okay.
Molly Bierman (32:14.323)
has been largely co-opted by an online subculture of predominantly heterosexual men who express this frustration through a specific, often extreme, ideological lens. The online subculture is complex but generally centered on shared experiences of rejection and social isolation which are then processed through a framework that can be deeply misogynistic and misanthropic.
JIll (32:26.456)
Yes.
JIll (32:37.582)
So what was disturbing...
Molly Bierman (32:38.227)
This was coined in the 1990s by a Canadian woman named Alana who created a supportive online space for anyone struggling with lack of sexual romantic experience.
JIll (32:48.078)
But this has been extreme, think, because what ends up happening is this like hatred towards women because of this like rejection that they feel like they're experiencing. But some of the, in this forum, there was all these little like, you know, it's kind of, it was kind of like Reddit, but for like incels, right? And so there were some like sub things that were about like where to get a doll and like.
Michelle Macolino (32:55.07)
equipment.
Michelle Macolino (33:07.143)
Okay.
JIll (33:15.438)
a robot and all these other things that they can do to substitute a romantic relationship. And it was just like, but guys, like no one's talking about, what are the efforts that we're talking about? Like, can you talk to a female? Can you talk to somebody of the opposite sex? Like, or are you sitting on a headset playing video games for 12 hours a day and then pissed off that you can't find a girlfriend? Nobody wants to date that.
Michelle Macolino (33:17.118)
yeah, yeah.
Michelle Macolino (33:32.872)
Well, that's my thing, right?
Michelle Macolino (33:39.071)
A million.
Molly Bierman (33:40.437)
Thanks.
Michelle Macolino (33:42.655)
So when I tell specifically young men, you need to go out, and my catchphrase is you need to kiss a thousand frogs. And I'll be like, you need to go up to women and talk to them. are like highly, they're like, what do you mean? I don't wanna be a creep. I don't wanna be inappropriate. And I'm like, how did we get there? I said, go up to someone and be like, hey, can I buy you a drink? No, that's weird. They have such a dis-
JIll (33:53.496)
Totally.
Michelle Macolino (34:12.688)
connection from reality because they have not lived in real life. They have no lived experience. And I think that part of it has been this like undertone message to with all of this. I don't want to go down another route, like masculine toxicity, that there's men who are afraid that if I even just walk up to a woman, I'm being creepy and inappropriate. And so then therefore the only way is to curate something first online so she knows
JIll (34:29.25)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Macolino (34:42.578)
I'm safe, but then that's not actually real life either, and then that creates this whole thing. And I'm going to add a layer, which is spicy. I also think that this is big among these young men too, is that what it leads to is severe overuse of porn, which leads to real life sexual dysfunction.
JIll (34:53.442)
We love spicy.
Molly Bierman (35:07.838)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Michelle Macolino (35:08.86)
which creates more of that fear of, now I really can't go on a date because I'm not going to be able to perform.
JIll (35:18.562)
Well, not only that, but then once I'm in this relationship, their idea of what a typical sexual relationship is so distorted.
Michelle Macolino (35:24.574)
Well, so that's a whole other level of what I see. And I see that constantly. That's what the lack of performance is around because the real life situation doesn't come close to the porn situation. it never will. That's right. Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly. Spoiler. And there's such a, then it's like,
JIll (35:28.652)
That's a whole nother!
JIll (35:40.844)
Never will. News alert, news alert, never will.
Molly Bierman (35:42.135)
never will, right. News alert.
Molly Bierman (35:51.538)
Right.
Michelle Macolino (35:53.915)
you know, there's such a disconnect and they've created this situation and it just real life doesn't work.
JIll (36:02.232)
But you know what's creepy? You sitting in your basement playing video games for eight hours. That's creepy. No, who wants that?
Michelle Macolino (36:08.166)
Yeah, yes, and I'm using porn.
Molly Bierman (36:11.411)
Well, I actually just talked to somebody yesterday. I think I just talked to somebody yesterday who did a lot of research on tech addiction and kind of falls in line also with gambling addiction. And what they said, well, it's a process addiction, of course, and they just have an inability to connect in a lot of ways, right? So when we were thinking about what this episode looked like, how do people, you're DBT trained, Michelle, and you...
JIll (36:23.5)
It's a process addiction.
Molly Bierman (36:39.973)
you know, see this in manifesting in so many different ways in your practice, what do you find is the most helpful skill that you're able to use to really help people reconnect? And I would assume that it's reconnecting with themselves before connecting with somebody else because they feel so disconnected from self. And that's a lot of what we see, especially with process addiction and drug addiction and alcoholism.
Michelle Macolino (37:06.118)
Well, I think that's it, right? So like in the DBT world, it's the interpersonal effectiveness skills, but really we're talking about like the connection to self. And so what I am doing in sessions is like somewhere, and this is the work of it, is there some core belief, right? From probably from childhood that like you don't deserve love or no one's ever gonna love you or you're never going to get the relationship that you
think you deserve. Like there's some block. And so I'm not good enough. I'm not smart enough, successful enough, handsome enough, like whatever the thing is, by the way, women feel those things too. And so it keeps you again around like we're talking about like vulnerability and intimacy. keeps you safe in the basement.
JIll (37:39.138)
I'm not good enough.
Michelle Macolino (37:55.603)
because then I never actually have to face any of those. And so the unblocking of those core beliefs that are so deep rooted comes from like doing interpersonal effectiveness work, which is like, know, deepening relationships you already have, sharing little bits of vulnerability with people that are already in your life, right? Like, you know, but like in small measured steps.
and starting to allow yourself to become a little bit more open. Even like I tell people, right? Like even with the guy, your barista, right? Like, you know, find something to connect. Maybe he loves dogs and you have a dog. We're not telling him about our trauma, but you're going to find something that you, if you see that guy every day and he makes your coffee every day, find something that you can say like, hey, I see you like dogs or whatever.
And like that little step actually is a building block. Or your hairdresser. Exactly, exactly.
Molly Bierman (38:58.65)
Or your hairdresser. I feel like my hairdresser knows everything.
JIll (39:04.236)
I'm just thinking about my own children and how people will comment. I got a comment this morning how an adult was like, it's so pleasant hanging out with your daughter. It's like, I'm just hanging out with another, it's not like a child I'm having a conversation with. And my son's the same way. My son can have a, he's seven, but he can ask questions, have a mutual conversation.
Michelle Macolino (39:25.081)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
JIll (39:27.382)
And I think that if you don't have a screen and you're kind of forcing those interactions in person, right? That's how you develop it. I think for these young adults, it's almost like, we're a little too late. We missed that development piece. So now we're like trying to put that into place now after these neural networks were already in place.
Michelle Macolino (39:33.02)
Yep. Yep.
Michelle Macolino (39:45.555)
Well, it's two parts to that. It's because of the screen and it's because I also think because of COVID. I think because they, you know, and I think that they like were checked out of life for so long. They were actually told to stay away from people. They were told that people are dangerous. They were told that people were unsafe and that that
JIll (39:52.066)
Totally.
Michelle Macolino (40:06.734)
that actually landed somewhere it's imprinted now and they have the screen all the time. So those, the combination of those two things, I think there is some underlying like, know, undertone that people are scary.
JIll (40:24.994)
Well, it goes back to all of the research around, we're not meant to have all of this data coming about all the scary things of the world. We're just not built for that. Our brains are not technologically advanced.
Michelle Macolino (40:33.574)
No, we're not. We're not, actually. No. That's right. Actually, I was listening to a podcast, I think, months ago, and it said something like, in one day, and I'm going to quote it wrong, but like, in one day, we receive more information than people in the 1500s had in their lifetime. Like, in one day. Like, are constantly...
JIll (40:58.476)
And so our brains have not caught up to that.
Michelle Macolino (41:00.57)
Our brains can't handle it. Exactly. when you think, like to your point, right? Like how do we, that's ADHD for all of us then. Like how are we making sense of any of that? Right.
Molly Bierman (41:11.73)
So for parents who we just recently had Sarah Benton on the podcast who wrote the book Parents in Recovery and she talked a little bit about families and awareness and how things impact and how they're tethered and generational ruptures or repairs. How would you say, what would you advise parents to look for?
where it doesn't get to the place where someone's eight hours in the basement playing video games. I mean, that's a pretty extreme, like there's a much more subtle examples of children and young adults being disconnected from self and therefore disconnected from others. So what would you suggest to be aware of? And what were you aware of with your own children who are still in their developmental stages?
Michelle Macolino (41:59.775)
Yeah, well for sure I think it's important like one hard rule in my house is like there's no phones during meal time. Like we don't like no phones at the dinner table. Like that's a hard rule in my house. But I'm like a lot of parents I will say like have your kids charge their phone outside their bedroom at night, overnight, you know, separation.
Molly Bierman (42:20.591)
There's none.
Michelle Macolino (42:24.912)
And again, I'll be honest, like some days are better than others. But you know, I mean, that's just the truth, you know? But I think like, as long as you can try and be consistent, but again, if we're talking about connection, even kids who...
Molly Bierman (42:28.376)
Yeah.
Michelle Macolino (42:38.814)
or at a developmental age where maybe it feels like they hate their parents. They really, really love their parents. And so I still believe at the end of the day that if you told, you know, you're 15 and 17 or 14 and 16 year olds, hey, put your phones down and we're going to do a family activity. Most of the time they would be really into that. I think that they're craving that. And I think that that, and it's missing. think parents think they don't want it and kids think parents are too busy.
Molly Bierman (43:00.783)
Yeah.
Molly Bierman (43:08.91)
Yeah, I mean, I would agree with that because even when I'm watching TV with my son, I mean, he's still little, but I'll turn off the TV and he'll, you know, throw like a, you know, really not that large of a fit, but it'll be like, come on, or I want to keep watching or he'll cry a little bit and I'll say, let's go in the basement and play trains. And he's like, okay. And he transitions like very quickly, you know.
Michelle Macolino (43:25.094)
Okay, yeah. You know, I always feel that like my best time with my daughters is in the car because they're trapped. like when I have them alone in the car often, like if I stay quiet, they start chatting. Like they wanna talk to us, you know? And they wanna tell us things and they want us involved, you know? And...
Molly Bierman (43:34.35)
Yes.
Molly Bierman (43:43.383)
I don't
Molly Bierman (43:51.695)
I think about that often because even when we were growing up, our parents couldn't talk to people on the phone in the car. So I'm actually pretty mindful of that. Like we always listen to music and we would fight over whose music we were listening to. And we did have, you know, those TVs that you could kind of put on the back of your whatever like for long road trips or it was like a big one with the VHS that you could put in it.
Michelle Macolino (44:00.169)
Yes.
JIll (44:06.392)
Yep.
Michelle Macolino (44:07.014)
Yes.
Molly Bierman (44:17.091)
But for long trips, know, for if we were just going back and forth to sports, spending a lot of time in the car with one another, there was this element that mom wasn't having adult conversations in the car with the kids. And so I have been fairly cognizant of that because I do know that when I'm listening to whatever.
Michelle Macolino (44:32.082)
Yes. Yep.
Molly Bierman (44:42.819)
Paw Patrol or whatever we're doing that is like, it nails on a chalkboard for me. I do know that my son is connecting with me and being like, we're listening to this together. Rather than me being in a conversation, which he won't push back on, but you could tell he's, you know, he's like, this is, we're not connected.
Michelle Macolino (44:52.658)
Thanks.
Michelle Macolino (45:02.756)
Mm-hmm. Well, that's interesting that you say that because that's something I talk about all the time, right? Like that sometimes sitting with someone and watching a show is actually very connected, where other times we could be in the same room with someone and feel very disconnected.
JIll (45:03.661)
Yep.
Molly Bierman (45:16.12)
Right?
Michelle Macolino (45:22.27)
It's kind of like the intention, right? Like in that moment, like even though you and your son are watching a show and you're not having a deep conversation, the intention is to connect and that's Versus like when you walk into a room full of people and maybe you don't know any of them, you could feel very alone even though there's room full of people.
Molly Bierman (45:32.718)
Sure, sure.
Molly Bierman (45:46.03)
So you talk about wanting to expand your practice and you founded Clear Mind Counseling. You're currently situated on Long Island looking to expand into New York City. When you, you know, just to kind of talk a little bit about leadership and development, what has that been like? What has been the strength of Clear Mind Counseling? Where are the growth strategies and, you know, as a woman entrepreneur, as well as a mom, what does that look like in your day to day?
Michelle Macolino (46:14.846)
Um, so I was in a group practice for 10 years and two and a half years ago, I decided to go out on my own. It was always my long-term goal. Um, but I mean, you know, like you get complacent. It was easy. I can come and go for a little. And so finally I felt like I was just in a place where I was like really ready. And the
Molly Bierman (46:32.622)
in.
Molly Bierman (46:38.861)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Macolino (46:40.318)
best part of it for me, which was so unexpected, was that I really loved the business end. I had no idea that I first of all, and I think you guys talked about this in another podcast I listened to, why do they not teach business in social work school? No idea. But I had no idea. I'd never like started a business. And I loved it. I loved everything about it. And I found it lit me up in a new way. Like I love doing therapy. But
Molly Bierman (46:49.794)
Interesting.
Michelle Macolino (47:10.272)
that this was like a different lighting up of my brain.
and I loved planning it. loved like the branding part, like all of it was so fun and so exciting to me. and that was really surprising. And so like a year in, I decided to expand and take on an associate. And so now Lindsay works with me. and she's a great compliment, I believe, like I do DBT, she does EMDR. and so it feels cohesive and like, you
they really work nicely together. Obviously we see a lot of trauma, addiction, eating disorders, depression, anxiety. I mean the same kind of practices that most do, but I feel like we can offer kind of like a unique and complimentary set of services.
Something really cool too about Lindsay that I'll just plug is that she has a therapy dog. So she has a Shih Tzu who she brings to the sessions with her and he like will be in the room and he kind of like will like aid in her sessions. Like Dante will do. I know and it's really, I don't think that there's a lot of people doing that on Long Island. So that's really cool.
Molly Bierman (48:23.611)
amazing.
Molly Bierman (48:31.916)
pleasing.
Michelle Macolino (48:34.116)
And so then just like in terms of a growth mindset, I feel like I'm in that momentum because I really loved the business end. And so I wanted to like kind of break out into the city. I go to the city a lot. do, I go to a lot of events. I know a lot of people in the city. And so I was like, that just feels like maybe the next step.
And so as of October, I have an office in Manhattan. And so my intention for 2026 is to really start growing that part of the business. Yeah.
Molly Bierman (49:06.314)
Amazing. And where is your office in New York City?
Michelle Macolino (49:10.328)
It is on Lexington and 60th. Yeah.
Molly Bierman (49:14.956)
Okay, great.
So you're a mom of teenagers, you are working, you are doing all the things. In closing, if you could shift one belief for young adults about the ideas they hold about intimacy, what would it be?
Michelle Macolino (49:37.694)
you
Michelle Macolino (49:41.764)
I would say take the risk. The risk is worth it. It's scary, but anything amazing is scary. And so I would say take the risk, right? The belief is that it's fear and it's protection. And I would say take the leap. Yeah.
Molly Bierman (49:55.02)
So true.
Molly Bierman (50:06.316)
Amazing.
JIll (50:09.538)
That's a great permission slip for our listeners. Take the risk.
Michelle Macolino (50:11.55)
Yeah. Take the risk.
Molly Bierman (50:13.77)
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much. It has been a pleasure and hopefully we will have a part two at some point. And you made it onto your bucket list that you recorded your first ever podcast and we are so thrilled that you shared the experience with us. As everyone knows, please follow us on YouTube, like and subscribe. We appreciate all the support. Write us in, comment.
Michelle Macolino (50:18.814)
It's so good! I love that!
I did.
Molly Bierman (50:43.242)
give us suggestions. We're looking to grow ourselves for 2026 and we look forward to you guys being along our journey. Thank you so much.
Michelle Macolino (50:53.011)
Thank you so much for having me. It was actually amazing. I'm so grateful. Thank you.
JIll (50:53.154)
Thanks.
Molly Bierman (50:56.854)
Pleasure.
