Season 2 Episode 11 with Jill Griffin & Molly Bierman
Why does asking to be paid fairly feel so uncomfortable, especially when your work involves helping other people?
In this episode of No Permission Necessary, Jill Griffin and Molly Bierman explore the relationship between women and money, the pressure to discount professional services, and the importance of setting financial boundaries in service-based careers.
Drawing from their experiences in behavioral health, therapy, consulting, and business ownership, Jill and Molly discuss the challenges of balancing compassion with the financial realities of running a sustainable practice.
Molly shares how an early experience granting a discount without understanding a client's financial circumstances changed her approach to compensation conversations. Jill reflects on learning to recognize her expertise, raising her consulting fees, and becoming comfortable referring prospective clients when her services are outside their budgets.
They also discuss why women may feel obligated to give away professional expertise, how unclear pricing boundaries can lead to resentment, and why financial assistance works best when it is intentional and sustainable.
Ultimately, this conversation challenges the idea that getting paid for helping others somehow diminishes the care behind the work.
Because being generous and running a profitable business don't have to be opposing goals.
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Molly Bierman (00:00)
Caring is not a discount. You can care about people and still charge enough.
This idea that people think if I really cared that I would be doing this for free. And I don't understand why that correlates. It does not make sense to me.
Jill Griffin (00:15)
But let's go back.
Yeah, this is my
job. This is my profession. This is what I do to earn money. That is
Molly Bierman (00:20)
Right, right, right.
Jill Griffin (00:22)
the purpose of what I do is to earn money. And I and I don't s I say that shamelessly.
Oof. People are gonna struggle with this, so listen up.
Molly Bierman (00:41)
People are gonna struggle for a couple reasons. One is
money is an uncomfortable topic for women, studies show, uh, more so than men. Two is is that we're in a helping profession, and so some people do not understand the delineation between service work and paid work.
Jill Griffin (00:57)
Mm.
Molly Bierman (00:58)
And three is I think understanding your value is confusing to some, especially in the behavioral health space, when you have created your foundational launch on service.
Jill Griffin (01:09)
This is timely for me there's some struggle sometimes even with the conversation that therapists have to have with their clients around like owing money.
And we try to shield that conversation. But what I've noticed when we bring this up in a group setting is that there have been comments from staff, therapists in general, where it's like, well, if they can't pay, we should still provide services. And it's like, well,
it becomes difficult to show up as your best self as the provider because then there's you know there's a resentment piece that comes into that too where it's like, well I'm doing my part, you're not doing yours, and we had an agreement.
Molly Bierman (01:46)
Well, it's a service industry. service industry meaning like fee for service, right? So in any other bucket, okay, outside of therapy or psychiatry, I'm gonna dumb this down really, you know, simply. If you go to the nail salon and you get your nails done, and then afterwards you tell the tech that you can't afford it,
That's not gonna go well. Like
Jill Griffin (02:09)
No.
Molly Bierman (02:10)
you have to pay for the service delivered, right? If there's a conversation beforehand, that's something else, right? But I it, you know, I don't want to go too far down the rabbit hole of of the of the client. It's more so why as women,
Do we struggle to have financial conversations? Is it because of financial literacy? Is it because you weren't taught?
Is it because you have fear around it? Is it because you're you don't feel worthy? Like, what is it? Because a lot of times
Jill Griffin (02:42)
Yeah.
Molly Bierman (02:43)
in my business, what I'm constantly talking about with our associates is their worth, right? Like their ticket price, right? So, like if they're gonna deliver a service to one of my clients, how much are they expecting to be compensated for that? Right? And I've always been of the mindset I want to compensate people what they're worth. But what I won't do for
Someone is I won't lead you down that road and create that conversation for you because that's not my job, right? My job is to offer an opportunity to have a conversation about it. I can definitely give you points, tips, and tricks. But I think people get so nervous around having this conversation. And what I will say is that I had to learn that the hard way.
My story is that I worked in a private pay behavioral health center. And prior to working in private pay, I worked in non-for-profit. And just to give everybody a little bit of context of what that meant, not one person that showed up on our doorstep for the sober living had resources.
And then I also worked in the men's prisons who didn't have any resources, right? And they were completely dependent on state resources. So fast forward to a fully private pay program in Fairfield County. And I'll never forget it. I was
doing an admission for a client who asked for a financial discount. I did not have the courage or the competency to be able to have the dialogue with the father, right? With the guarantor.
So I in my mind was like, okay, if they're asking for a discount, they're asking for a discount. Then I wanna honor that discount because I wanna be able to help the client, right? So this kind of like blurred line between service and fee for service, right? Two different things. Service work, acts of you know, doing the next right thing, acts of kindness, give it away to keep it, great. And this is like a paid, like this is a business,
So this dad wanted a a discount and I basically honored it with no questions asked.
I didn't ask them to fill out any sort of documentation, financial assistance form, any of those things. We'll come to find out they they didn't need a discount, right? At all. They were in a, you know, an affluent family that had plenty of resources. What I learned from that was not so much, like he got me. Like that didn't really cross my mind. It was more so, what does that say about my ability to have those conversations and be able to confront an uncomfortable situation?
Which is asking, okay, why do you need the discount? What does that look like? Can you fill out a financial form? You know, all of those questions are something that goes into that type of dialogue and it created a much more confident level in myself to be able to own that,
Jill Griffin (05:29)
So I think because as a therapist,
what happens is sometimes we internalize that, like we are the person, the provider that's supposed to be kind of like providing this service, even if the person doesn't have resources.
There's this part of you that like doesn't want to turn anybody away.
I really had to get comfortable. And I remember somebody teaching me about this. It's like, okay, but if we can't serve them because they can't pay, there are other places that we can refer them to. Just because we can't serve them doesn't mean they can't be served. It just means that we can't serve them. And it's not, you know, it's not about me not being generous. Because if I'm being honest.
My expertise as a mastered level master's level licensed clinician, I have people calling me every week. Like, and that's not an exaggeration. I I I provided referrals to two people this week who called me for, you know, advice about a family member or a friend about like what we should do, right?
Molly Bierman (06:27)
Sure. Yeah.
Right. Right.
Jill Griffin (06:29)
That's my that's my clinical expertise. Okay. When you're
giving me a case example and I'm providing you with my clinical recommendation, I've got a master's degree for that. Right? It's just like if you have a nurse or a doctor in the family or a friend, right? You call them, you're like, hey, what do you do? But if it goes beyond just like a five minute phone call and you're asking me to do an assessment, it's like
Now my license is coming into play. You know what mean? Like, we can't just be giving out care. But but like,
Molly Bierman (06:57)
Yeah, right.
Jill Griffin (06:59)
yes, but the more that I became an expert, my time and my value internally, the way that I viewed my own worth, started to increase. And I think that there are some people that
They don't see themselves as an expert or that they know something maybe that other people don't. I think they see themselves as like just part of the system of what I should be doing. And they listen to maybe other people, but then who's paying your bills? Who's paying your rent? Like,
You you can't put yourself in a situation where you're now in in need of help because you're not getting the income for the work that you're doing. Like we can't in no other industry would that be expected.
Molly Bierman (07:42)
So this is like a really I had a really, really charged experience. I don't even know if you know this, but this happened a few years ago. It was right around the time that I can't remember. It was like a job change, right? And it was an update on maybe Facebook, right?
And didn't check that social media outlet all that frequently. And all of a sudden I went on I see a comment from a guy who was in recovery with me probably many, many years ago.
And he says something to the effect, must be nice to have capitalized your career on other people's pain. Something to that effect. It was, it was like,
Jill Griffin (08:21)
Yikes. Sounds like a you problem, bro.
Molly Bierman (08:24)
it was shots fired, right? It was pretty intense. And I sat there and and and thought about it for a second, and I was like, God, this is the problem, right?
This idea that people think if I really cared that I would be doing this for free. And I don't understand why that correlates. It does not make sense to me.
Jill Griffin (08:47)
But let's go back. But
but let's go back though, because like.
It's a ripple effect. If you're not I've had this conversation with
Molly Bierman (08:55)
Mm-hmm.
Jill Griffin (08:56)
with therapists who have opened up their own business and
the money that you are collecting, if you're just gonna waive all of that, then you're cutting into your profit. Profit is not a bad word. It's not a bad thing. I've had to have these conversations with so many people. If you are not profitable, you will not continue to have a business. Period.
This is not about, this is not about you like maximizing profits at the expense of taking care of your staff or being so greedy. I I just feel like profit is associated with greed and is associated with this negative connotation when it's like, if you don't have profit, who is paying for it then? Somebody is, and it's probably you coming out of your pocket. And if you don't have your stability as helper.
Your rent paid, your mortgage paid, your groceries paid. If you're stressing about money all the time, how are you then gonna show up and help somebody else?
Molly Bierman (09:52)
But I think what really could have s like struck me by it was it that when the work is helping others, charging can feel like it contradicts the mission, as if the price cancels out the care. It like is baffling to me.
Jill Griffin (10:06)
Yeah, this is my
job. This is my profession. This is what I do to earn money. That is
Molly Bierman (10:09)
Right, right, right.
Jill Griffin (10:11)
the purpose of what I do is to earn money. And I and I don't s I say that shamelessly.
That this is literally what I chose to do for a career.
Molly Bierman (10:20)
correct. So the idea is that, you know, to give the listeners a little bit of a, you know, a plug here, the idea is that we really start to get clear, are we charging enough? Right? Like, are you charging in a manner that is universal, right? Like you're not making exceptions because you have these passion projects,
Jill Griffin (10:39)
Or or you change your
price depending on who's biting. Oh well,
Molly Bierman (10:42)
Right. Right.
Jill Griffin (10:45)
I don't have any. So this now is the price. No, your price is what you're worth. That's the price.
Molly Bierman (10:49)
Right, right.
And then there is an opportunity to provide additional resources if somebody cannot afford your services and or there are hardship forms, which again gives ownership not only to you, but also to the person who needs it, that there's accountability around discounts, right?
So giving from guilt feels tight and it quietly keeps score. I think that was such like a, you know, it it was it was head on when we were writing up this episode because if we start to just feel guilty and doing this, that's not really solving for the problem.
Right? Like we have to solve for why is it that we're uncomfortable about having the conversation and how do we co-create a different road for ourselves that encompasses an equality across the board for our profession.
Jill Griffin (11:36)
Mm.
I also think just putting it in the context of can I do this without resenting it? Am I gonna feel like now, you know, I'm on the hook for this? Because
Molly Bierman (11:46)
Right.
Jill Griffin (11:47)
I will tell you.
Some of the most nightmare situations I have found myself in as a provider is when I either reduce the cost or I give
it away for free.
I can't tell you the amount of business owners, therapists especially, if you have hung your shingle and you are your own business, you are it just you, it's still a business. You can't you have to look at your financials. How often are you giving away your services for free?
I ha I had a conversation at a consulting job with somebody this past year. And uh I was like, hey, when's the last time you you increased your rates? They're like, Oh, I I can do that. Yeah. Yeah, you you determine what your rate is. You yes, you can you can certainly do that. Absolutely. And if you haven't, you should, because it sounds like you're overdue.
Molly Bierman (12:39)
And also understanding the sustainability of that, right? So when you when you're when you're really looking at this in terms of tangibles, right? What is your rate? You can always keep a small number of reduced fee spots. And if those spots are not available and you say on a monthly basis, I have two reduced fee spots, right? And then it takes the emotion out of it. It's like, okay, either those two are filled or they're not filled and there's one available, right?
Jill Griffin (13:06)
Yeah.
Molly Bierman (13:07)
So Again, just like starting to get comfortable with the dialogue.
Jill Griffin (13:11)
Yeah.
Listen, I can also talk all this shit and stand here and I especially when I'm in a consultant role with somebody like, hey, you need to do this XYZ. But Molly was the one that last year she was like, you need to be charging more. And I was like, Yeah.
Molly Bierman (13:27)
I have no problem.
Jill Griffin (13:29)
Yeah, but I already charge X amount. And then when I really had an honest like look at what my fees have been and how long my fees have been, I did need to.
increase my rate. And what's happened with that, I will tell you, is that I have attracted clients who are positioned to do the work that I offer. Right. And so what I mean by that is I'm not for everybody. That's just regardless of the price that I charge. But
Molly Bierman (13:58)
Too shy.
Jill Griffin (13:59)
but when I'm having these conversations and and calls about what I can offer
I will say that a lot of times people are like, okay, that's what you cost. And I I price myself out of some jobs because this is what it costs to work with me. And I I it took me honestly, probably the first half of this year to get comfortable with that. And I've had to turn more clients away than not. And saying to them, hey, this is my fee. I'm really sorry I can't offer for less, but I do have these colleagues that have, you
Molly Bierman (14:27)
Right.
Jill Griffin (14:28)
know, lower price rates. I'm I'm handing them off to somebody else that does similar work, but I but somebody recommended you, I wanna work with you.
But if you want work with me, this is the price.
Molly Bierman (14:36)
So uh if you are feeling like you're stuck in having that dialogue, please reach out. Please drop us like a note in the chat or reach out to us directly. We're happy to help.
Jill Griffin (14:45)
We can help. We are happy
to hype you up and really get you charging what you're worth. We're we're about that life. Let's
Molly Bierman (14:53)
So
Jill Griffin (14:53)
do let's do some rapid fire.
Molly Bierman (14:55)
Discount or hold the price and lose the client. Um, hold the price.
Jill Griffin (14:59)
Hold the price. I mean, and and I wouldn't say lose the client. I would say Refer them
Molly Bierman (15:03)
Right.
Jill Griffin (15:03)
to somebody else that can that they can afford. I I don't I don't know what to say.
Molly Bierman (15:08)
Harder to say out loud, your price or no. Neither for me.
Jill Griffin (15:12)
For me, it's a little bit of no, just because I do get people who somebody has given them hope that I might be an answer for them.
Molly Bierman (15:20)
Yeah.
Jill Griffin (15:21)
You know, and so it it sometimes is really hard to say like, yes, I can help. And when the price becomes a reason I can't, it's that does become a little challenging s in some instances.
My regular no, I don't have a problem with.
Molly Bierman (15:36)
Right, right, right. I understand that.
Jill Griffin (15:38)
One thing you will always give for free on purpose.
Molly Bierman (15:41)
All of the service work I do outside of my job. I mean, I don't think it's an appropriate platform to put that out there because part of it is doing it in you know quietly. Um, but all of the ways that I give back to the community and to the substance use disorder movement, mental health movement on purpose.
Jill Griffin (16:00)
Yeah. Again, I I can't it is not an exaggeration to say every week there is a phone call that comes in. Hey, don't wanna bother you. Hey, what do you think about this? I I have no uh yeah, it's I've I have no problem. Yeah.
Molly Bierman (16:13)
Always. Or I want to be mentored or I want to figure out a spot in the field. Right,
right. Yeah.
Your shortest sentence when someone asks for a deal.
Jill Griffin (16:24)
No.
Molly Bierman (16:27)
I mean I'd have to agree.
Jill Griffin (16:28)
I'm sorry, but no.
Molly Bierman (16:29)
Um, finish this sentence. Charging enough lets me.
Jill Griffin (16:35)
Give
back to others.
Molly Bierman (16:37)
One hundred percent. Uh not sit in resentment.
Jill Griffin (16:40)
Well, I hope everyone has found this helpful. But what would be good to know is do you want us to go deeper on the money conversation, continue some of these financial conversations? Because like Molly said, I think that there's just so much to unpack in terms of this, especially women in finances and all that. And maybe even having a guest on to talk about some of this stuff would be good.
Um, but please follow us on Instagram, DM us with any comments, questions, all of that stuff, and permission to charge your worth.
Molly Bierman (17:13)
Until next time, see you guys next week.
Jill Griffin (17:16)
Bye.
