Is “Woo-Woo” Actually Working? Science, Faith & Mental Health

Mar 31

Episode 40 with Jill Griffin & Molly Bierman

Is “woo-woo” actually real… or is there something deeper going on?

In this episode of No Permission Necessary, Jill and Molly unpack the intersection of science, spirituality, and mental health, exploring why practices like meditation, manifestation, EMDR, and even tarot cards can have a real impact, even when we don’t fully understand how they work.

From therapy sessions to personal experiences, they reflect on the idea that not everything needs to be proven to be effective, and how faith, intuition, and awareness play a role in healing.

This conversation explores:

• The difference between evidence-based practice and lived experience

• Why what you focus on shapes your mental health

• How trauma and emotions are stored in the body

• The role of intuition and self-awareness in healing

• How “woo-woo” practices can support emotional regulation

• Why stillness, reflection, and disconnection are more important than ever

They also share personal stories about how small shifts, like changing what you consume or simply moving your body, can dramatically impact how you feel.

This episode is an invitation to get curious, stay open-minded, and explore what works for you, even if you can’t fully explain it.

Jill Griffin (00:20)
Welcome back to No Permission Necessary. We are talking today about a topic that's come up in several of my therapy sessions recently. I... ⁓
Molly Bierman (00:23)
Cheers.
Jill Griffin (00:33)
I do work with a lot of first responders. So I don't know if maybe that's why it's come up a little bit more, although it's there have been non-first responders to make this comment to me. But I'm an EMDR certified therapist. So when I start explaining EMDR to people when they're asking what it is, a lot of times they're like, this sounds real woo woo. Like this doesn't sound like, like how does it actually work? And there is definitely some research behind it we can get into it, but it made me
Molly Bierman (00:55)
Bye.
Jill Griffin (01:02)
think about how much like woo woo stuff I actually participate in, in my own And it really brought me to this conversation around really faith. Like
what the evidence is around certain things and how we kind of have to have faith that things are going to work when we don't see that evidence and how those two things can intersect.
Molly Bierman (01:27)
Should I draw a card for this episode? I have my cards right here. Okay.
Jill Griffin (01:29)
⁓ let's do it. Let's
do it.
Molly Bierman (01:33)
So these are a special set of cards and these are from a woman who has inspired me over many many years. Her name is Jill Kroosh. But this is what they are.
Jill Griffin (01:33)
So.
I thought she was gonna say Jill Griffin, guys. I really thought.
Molly Bierman (01:47)
Did you give me cards? Okay. Called the Still Full Women, but we'll replace this for women, women or men, depending on who is listening here. People in general, the humankind, guys. All right, we're gonna pull a card. And if you guys don't do this, sometimes I do this with my kids, it's actually very fun. They get to pick one, they have no idea what it means, but at least they participate. Okay.
Jill Griffin (01:56)
People. People.
Molly Bierman (02:11)
So we'll pull a card for the episode and see if we really want to get woo-woo. It'll guide the conversation. All right, are we ready?
Okay, here we go. This is the card I pulled. If you guys are watching on YouTube. And what it says is savoring the positive. I allow myself the spaciousness of savoring the delicious gifts in my life.
Jill Griffin (02:23)
There we go.
We all could use that today, you know?
Molly Bierman (02:34)
Truly. Okay.
Jill Griffin (02:35)
The
deliciousness of life, not an adjective I was describing the week as, but ⁓ here we are. That's why it's important sometimes to pull those cards, because it could be a mind shift. A mind state shift.
Molly Bierman (02:48)
Yes, it can be. I'm gonna hold on. We're just gonna, I'm just
Or was it the deliciousness?
Jill Griffin (02:52)
savoring the positive.
Molly Bierman (02:53)
Saving the positive. here we go, 37. Okay.
So, I slow down and savor the positive experiences in my life. I purposefully dwell on cherished events and people around me. Savoring the positive allows me to enjoy the moment and accept the delicious gifts that are in my life right now. Prolonging my attention on feelings and sensations connected to heartfelt memories, acts of kindness, and loving encounters, no matter how big or small, strengthens my capacity to embed them within my psyche.
Over time, the practice of savoring the positive built my emotional resilience, providing a foundation of strength that will support me during stressful times.
Jill Griffin (03:28)
Amazing.
Molly Bierman (03:28)
So this
is why the woo woo works, okay?
Jill Griffin (03:31)
So, well, I'm gonna give like some evidence-based reasons. So there's some people who are really the logical thinkers, they want the science behind things, they want the research, which great, I do too. I wanna know why things work sometimes. I also really encourage people to try some things that you don't understand how they work.
Molly Bierman (03:36)
Let's do it.
Mm-hmm.
Jill Griffin (03:55)
to see if they have a positive effect on you. So one of these things, I think about like positive psychology. There's tons of research around what we focus on, we get more of, which people will say is like a woo woo thing, manifestation. I mean, you could use all these different terms for it, but I will say that what you focus your attention on, what you consume, TV,
⁓ music, social media, the people that are in your life and what they talk about. What you're feeding yourself with is what you're going to see more of. So I'll give an example of my own life. And I think like collectively as a world right now, there's just a lot of heavy stuff that we're all kind of consuming all the time. And I think we're also seeing the impact of that on our mental health collectively.
Molly Bierman (04:22)
social media.
Jill Griffin (04:45)
our brains are not meant to take on the grief of the world and see all of the tragedy of the world. Our brains can't keep up with that, right? So I'll give a microcosm example of that for me. Years ago, I noticed that I wasn't sleeping well. This was probably like maybe like four or five years in sobriety.
Molly Bierman (04:51)
Mmm.
Jill Griffin (05:08)
I wasn't sleeping well. I was like nervous a lot of times when I would go out in like the world like checking behind me if I'm like walking in a parking lot, thinking somebody's gonna like attack me out in public, all this stuff. Well, one thing I started kind of like auditing my life. And one thing that I realized is that I was binge watching Law and Order SVU, Law and Order SVU religiously, especially before bed.
Molly Bierman (05:27)
Crime TV. Yeah.
Jill Griffin (05:33)
I cannot tell you, and I tell people this all the time, I cannot tell you how much my life improved when I stopped watching Law and Order SVO. And that doesn't mean that there's not special victims cases going on in the world. There are. I don't need to know about all of them. That's my imagination. I'm the victim then. I can't.
Molly Bierman (05:41)
Bye.
Well, it's like the true crime, the true crime podcast
that people listen to. I mean, I have a couple of friends who love it. For me, some people go to bed listening to it. I am so sensitive when it comes to what I absorb. Immediately, I am, you know, rattled. My husband can fall asleep to watching get killed in like a gruesome action movie and I'm sitting here unnerved.
Jill Griffin (05:56)
I can't.
Yeah.
now.
You know what I think it is, and this dates me probably, unsolved mysteries. That's what ruined it for me. Unsolved mysteries as a child. I could have sworn there was somebody in my closet growing up my entire childhood from that show.
I probably shouldn't have been watching it at the age I was watching it. But the point is people, if you're like watching the news cycle hours out of the day, first of all, the news cycle repeats every 20 to 30 minutes. So really that's the chunk of time we should be using it. So we're not saying don't be informed, but like really mindful. If you're listening to these fearful, bad things all the time, the output is going to be fearful and like not feeling good about like how,
how are in the world, right? doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but like this is where the woo-woo comes in of like, we pull that card. Well, I can choose now to focus on those things today. Like those words are gonna be in my subconscious today of like, how can I savor the positive today? How can I cherish the things that are going on in my life today? How can I be, because there's gonna be irritating things that come up. There's gonna be, you know, stuff that I don't like. And how are we gonna roll with it?
there's still positives that come out of all that. Like we get to choose our outlook. I think though, if we don't have a good foundation of what we're consuming, it really does shift our perspective in like a not so good way.
Molly Bierman (07:33)
I mean, it's really just getting it also in tune with what your body is telling you. You know, in a lot of ways when people say, you know, this woo woo idea, right? Whether going to have fun with your friends at a tarot card reading or if you're seeing a bodywork specialist or if you're just out in the world and you see were just thinking about a certain type of animal, a bird, whatever.
and all of a sudden it flies by and you're like, whoa, what was that? know, whatever it is, I think it's more just attunement to what's going on in and around you, right? And the idea of tapping into that and the more that we tap into that, the more aware we are of whatever's being thrown at us. And also I think what it really helps me to realize is that for so long,
I didn't want to hear anything that my body or my mind or my spirit was telling me. And I did everything, right. Everything to get outside of. Everything, everything, everything. Granted, that intuition probably helped me in a lot of ways, even though it was not as loud, because it kept us safe and kept us from harm's way in lot of circumstances when we were less than safe. now...
Jill Griffin (08:28)
Yeah, we were disconnected from our intuition.
Molly Bierman (08:48)
I think the more that I tap into it, the more that I yearn to have clarity, right? So whether that's pausing for a moment, whether that's...
having an undistracted conversation, whether that's deleting social media off my phone for multiple months because it just feels like it's too heavy or too hard or too easy to become distracted. I think that it really provides the opportunity to see what else is out there, you know, within my immediate vicinity, you know?
Jill Griffin (09:17)
Well, what do you think, I guess, you know, when we say woo woo to me, I think prayer falls under that energy work. Like you said, breath work, manifestation, astrology, the tarot cards.
Molly Bierman (09:29)
I think just, yeah,
superpowers in general.
Jill Griffin (09:33)
all these things that are unexplainable. Again, it goes back to the idea of faith. you, you, you are having faith that something's working even though you can't describe it, which I would argue for me is how my car works every day, how electricity works. I don't know how any, I don't know how those things work, but I trust that when I get in that car, it's going to run. And when I flip the switch is going to get light.
Molly Bierman (09:54)
break.
It's so true. Right?
Jill Griffin (09:59)
don't know how a lot of things work.
So going back to the whole EMDR thing, really, after I got trained and I started working with clients who we were just kind of stuck. And I really started realizing that this is really energy work because what ends up happening and know, Bessel van der Kolk and his book, The Body Keep Score is full of tons of research.
Molly Bierman (10:15)
The truth.
Jill Griffin (10:23)
Dry book, dry book to me, but it's a lot of research around how our emotions get stuck in our body and particularly women, but just people in general, get disease and illness.
Molly Bierman (10:31)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jill Griffin (10:37)
from our emotional state. negative emotions, they like actually infect our internal system, right? And there's evidence on that. And so what we're doing and what I've seen personally in work with people is we're moving that emotional energy around and out. I've seen people who've had fibromyalgia for years, unexplained, couldn't get a handle on it, in pain all the time. We've completed all the EMDR targets.
and they realize I haven't had to take pain medication, I'm no longer feeling the pain in my body, like there's a shift internally, right? And to me, there's no other explanation besides we're moving the energy around.
Molly Bierman (11:16)
Right,
right, right. Well, I think being able to even identify what that is, I think is the first, the first part, right? Having somebody point that out that maybe you've been so disconnected from your body, you can't even observe what's going on. Because I think a lot with clients and families that are in crisis, they can't even really begin to acknowledge that, right? They're so...
out of their window of tolerance. They're so hypervigilant. They're not able to pick subtle signs, right? Or not so subtle, right? And so I think that when you have someone who can point it out or you can start to acknowledge or just recognize, I do feel anxious or I feel a little bit of like shaking in my fingertips or I feel a little bit of tingling in my feet. Like again, that is not...
some people would toss that up as woo-woo like ⁓ that that's connected to some sort of emotion but the reality is if you actually tune into it it likely is connected to either a memory or an emotion or something going on inside your body and so allowing yourself to maybe even just get curious around that so you're not always feeling stuck you know and so that's been my experience at least
Jill Griffin (12:28)
Yeah. And I feel like,
I feel like the, the woo woo stuff of like meditation and breath work and some sound healing stuff and some like having that.
introspective time to go inward in a contained environment where you feel kind of safe, maybe somebody's leading you through that work. It allows you, it allows me to have thoughts come up or get in tune with how I'm feeling in my body or emotionally that you can't really do when we're just in the rat race. You can't pay attention to, you're not understanding.
Molly Bierman (12:58)
Mm-hmm.
Jill Griffin (13:02)
You know, so when we talk about some of that woo woo stuff and I would say like prayer and meditation, like I can kind of put things out there in prayer and not know what or who I'm praying to ⁓ or just put that out there. And I feel like that's the same thing as manifestation sometimes. Like sometimes when I'm praying for some things to work out, it doesn't mean it even happens the way I want it to, but it means...
Molly Bierman (13:24)
Well, how do you
feel like you spot it when you need to either pray, release, whether you need to connect with an individual, your therapist? Like, how do you spot, especially also, I think, in conjunction with leadership and, you know, business and ownership and you know, your job, your day to day job, right? Kind of take the business ownership out of it. How do you spot?
Jill Griffin (13:49)
when I have to do one of those things.
Molly Bierman (13:49)
discomfort? How do you spot? Yeah,
yeah.
Jill Griffin (13:52)
I mean, I think foundationally first, I have to be in a regulated state and I ⁓ hammer this with clients and friends. Like, am I sleeping enough? Am I hydrated? Am I eating? Am I eating to nourish my body? Am I moving my body? Because I will say that early in sobriety and even when I was actively using and up until I started doing those things regularly.
That was the answer to a lot of what was happening. So like, in other words, if I'm constantly stressed and on the edge of my window of tolerance or outside of it, because I'm not taking care of my basic functions, like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, like those basic needs. So I have headaches all the time. I'm like chronically tired. ⁓ I can't access these other things. So I guess I would have to start there. We have to learn how to take care of ourselves so that we can be open to these other things.
Molly Bierman (14:36)
Right.
Is it?
Jill Griffin (14:44)
First of all,
once I'm there, feel like it all starts with some sort of meditation practice. And I don't practice traditionally where I'm like sitting on a cushion, but I often will drive in silence.
I listen to certain like sounds that I'm just like used to listening to that me into some like state but I'm not necessarily like sitting there quietly with my eyes closed. Sometimes I'll pull a card. I feel like sometimes I look for other direction of where I need to move. I also spend the morning typically journaling or reading some sort of reading that
just makes me sit and think for a minute, what do I need? Because I feel like it depends on the day what I need.
Molly Bierman (15:27)
Yeah, I mean what I'll say is that the discomfort of thinking about driving in silence or sitting in quiet if you're having that, you know, kind of visceral reaction to what Jill just said, been there, right? Like have had many years of my life where silence, lack of connection, not talking to someone or having a conversation, not being with friends felt very overwhelming.
And now I feel like I'm able to...
kind of go in both directions. Know when quiet is needed, know when meditation is needed. I personally like meditation, I like guided meditation. I'm not saying I do it for an extended period of time, but I'll, you know, a five to 10 minute meditation where I'm able to just close my eyes, breathe, observe, acknowledge. That to me feels really refreshing. I think probably because I'm in the season of life where everyone is vying for my attention in a lot of different ways, whether that's clients, family, friends.
kids, most importantly, relationships, et cetera. So for me that start to my day, I will tell you there are days that I think that the biggest setback for me when it terms of like routine and consistency is that when I get thrown off my routine, I really struggle and it impacts the rest of my day. So I have to give myself permission to kind of tap back in, even if it's midday, right?
Like I didn't get my, you know, inventory out. didn't get my, you know, gratitudes out today. And how do I maybe tap into that midday where if I didn't do it in the morning, I can do it in the middle of the day. So the woo woo stuff, I don't know. I feel like anybody can say something's woo woo, whether that's prayer, meditation, yoga, all the things. it really means to me is tapping back into self.
Jill Griffin (17:12)
Yeah, and as we're talking, I'm thinking of all the clients who, you know, there's research out there right now that our time in history right now.
and don't quote me, I don't know the exact rates, but like people that say that they believe in God and have spiritual spirituality is the lowest it's ever been in history. And so, you know, some of that's the technology and all the information we have out there. Some of that's, you know, I think a lack of faith in general because organized religion has had its ups and downs in terms of, you know, organized religious leaders, like not acting right. And so there's a difference between religion and
spirituality however, I do think and I often have this very delicate conversation with clients with Just people in my life in general the role that faith and spirituality has played in my life because I Do think there's a very stark connection between The lack of that spirituality and the increase in mental health. I think there's like an inverse
like correlation there. And
Molly Bierman (18:15)
Correlation, yeah.
Jill Griffin (18:16)
when I sit with clients, you know, there tends to be this like hunger for something they can latch onto. And I don't think they can verbalize or know that it's like that inner knowing, that inner feeling, or the, listen, we call it like God thoughts, right? Like there are thoughts that I have, and I can tell you that there's been very prominent moments in my life. This is not a thought that I would be thinking.
Molly Bierman (18:41)
Probably.
Jill Griffin (18:41)
especially when it's something I don't wanna know, it's just like, I'm not, this isn't originate for me. It has to come from somewhere else, right? And
The reality is that EMDR or even that trauma work that you're doing with clients a lot of times, and I look at my own early sobriety and your stories too, like a lot of that work is learning how to trust ourselves and to differentiate like our intuition, trusting ourselves, being open to the possibility, like having an open mind that something else exists out there or like there are different ways to do things and like I can be exploratory about that. But that doesn't feel safe if you haven't
result, the trauma stuff. So when I see all these like coaches out there, I'm put them in quotes if you're not watching, I'm putting them in quotes, that are not trained therapists doing trauma work with people.
Tread carefully because I think that is such like ⁓ a delicate time to do like really important work that's gonna set you up to have these really profound experiences later in life if you can resolve them. Cause I think a lot of times that trauma is the block. Trauma, using substances, the mental health stuff. It blocks us from our own intuition. And yeah, our nervous system, it's like, it's blocking us from, from...
Molly Bierman (19:35)
you
and our nervous system, essentially.
Jill Griffin (19:59)
seeing what's out there support us.
Molly Bierman (20:00)
And
even if there are things that for you, you don't feel, I wanna make clear that not everyone has this big infinite boulder in the middle of their life that has been horrible. Yeah, but for the general like,
Jill Griffin (20:14)
Big T Trauma, Big T Trauma.
Molly Bierman (20:18)
listener who has no idea what trauma is or has no idea what the definition is, like just being able to acknowledge are there certain areas of your life that you feel uncomfortable or something feels a little uneasy or you get that knot in your stomach or you get like your throat starts to feel a little bit, you know, raspy or your feet start to tingle. Like I think that giving tangible
examples of what actually happens to the body, then you can say, ⁓ what is that? And get curious about it. Because what really happens is you start to really be in tune with, this happens every time I go to this store where I used to go. I'm just going to give an example where I used to go with my grandmother, who's no longer here and passed away. Right. Just like. And again, it's the natural sequence of life.
that grandma would pass away because of old age or sickness or something. But you regularly have this feeling in your body, right? And if you are able to not push it away and embrace it and get curious about it, something may result in that, right? And I don't know what that is. mean...
Jill Griffin (21:27)
Yeah. I mean,
I see, I think it comes up a lot more in patterns with people. It comes up in how you show up in life. So an example would be like, whenever you get feedback of any kind that sounds, that sounds like it's negative, you get into this defensive position and really start to get into a protector mode because you feel like that means that you're doing something wrong.
Molly Bierman (21:47)
Wrong.
Jill Griffin (21:48)
Right, I am wrong. I can't do anything right. That isn't really a conscious logical thought, but think about the arguments that maybe feel like we've been here before, this happens over and over. Or a reaction if your boss, we talked about this this week. If my boss calls, I think I did something wrong. It's like, okay, well, that's something to look at. Well, why do we have that belief? Why are we thinking about that?
Molly Bierman (22:00)
Yes. Yes.
Right?
Right. So I think, yeah, just
making sure that people understand that it can be very subtle. It doesn't have to be this in, right, right, right, right, right. Yeah.
Jill Griffin (22:16)
Yeah.
It's not PTSD flashbacks and nightmares and all of that. Sure. I
think that is a good distinction. But I also think like it confuses people like, what, what do I need? Again, I do think that healing is not linear. there's things that I do today that there was no way I could have done 15 years ago.
Molly Bierman (22:37)
Correct.
Jill Griffin (22:37)
Right? So we have to start where we're at. And for most people, especially in the United States of America, where we just collectively are not the healthiest, we really need to look at our habits and how we're taking care of ourselves. Because, you know, if you're not getting enough sleep, if you're not drinking enough water, if you're, I mean, there's just, these are basic things.
Molly Bierman (22:52)
Yes.
Extremely sedentary.
That's what I was going to say. if you guys haven't seen the podcast, the diary of the CEO, as much as we love you listening here, tune into some other podcasts. And one of them, diary of a CEO has really, really great speakers on it and interviews and very thoughtful, very relevant. And one woman was interviewed talking about Alzheimer's and how,
The effects of creatine helping Alzheimer's and kind of prolonging the health of the brain. But also one of the biggest contributing factors is the sedentary lifestyle. And how are you moving your body? How are you getting and moving again? I think that also goes back to Jill's point of how are you moving your body and moving around the energy that is stored, that is painful, that feels just, you know, uncomfortable rather than, you know, hiding from it, shielding from it or ignoring it.
Jill Griffin (23:47)
Listen, of those things, one of those things that people used to say to us in sobriety and we move a muscle, change a thought. And it's like, you know, there's some truth to that because I will say there's been times where I'm like stuck in a problem, whatever it may be, where I just, don't see the solution. I don't see the solution.
Molly Bierman (23:47)
If you into that
Maybe I'm a social angel though, yeah.
Yeah.
And I'm not gonna take myself
out of it. Just have to move on, honestly. Just have to move somewhere into another even.
Jill Griffin (24:09)
But a lot of times
I'm moving a muscle, changing a thought, I'm sitting there listening to Lil Jon and just having my best life, doing my dead lifts. And all of a sudden I'm like, whoa, answer. There's the answer. And again, it wasn't like I was sitting there thinking about it. It just like, we have to sometimes let it go. Yeah, that often happens to me. So like.
Molly Bierman (24:23)
Answer. Totally.
Yeah. Trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Jill Griffin (24:36)
You know, it's not either or. It's not like you do these woo-woo things. You know, I'm not gonna say here and advise Molly to just pull tarot cards every day and she's healed and she's fine. And you know what? Just follow the tarot card say every day, Molly. Like that's not realistic either. But I think there's a lot of synergy between these woo-woo things and fitting those into your healing practice so that.
Molly Bierman (24:50)
Right.
Jill Griffin (24:59)
know, massages, I think about massage just in general, like how important it was for me I held so much tension in my body. I had to kind of start there a lot of times to because it was so disconnected.
Molly Bierman (25:10)
Okay.
Jill Griffin (25:12)
So like even that is, know, choose your people wisely. Like therapy, massage therapist, whoever you're working with, these healers, like you need to make sure you feel safe and comfortable with these people because it is powerful work.
Molly Bierman (25:25)
I was thinking about the permission slip for this episode and I feel like it needs to be.
permission to move a muscle, change a thought. Because I think a lot of times people feel like they need to sit in the problem, they need to figure it out. And sometimes just removing yourself and allowing yourself to go on with your day, as Jill said, is going to clarify the answer, you know? So, permission to move a muscle, change a thought, permission to do the woo-woo thing that maybe your partner or your friend or your family think is bizarre.
I mean, I'll leave you with this because I think it's an important mention. I remember going over to my grandmother's house who passed away many years ago now and she was like my idol, right? I felt so connected to her life, but she was one who really struggled and had a lot of pain that she would hide behind her sarcastic humor and her quick wit and her beauty.
Jill Griffin (26:13)
you
Molly Bierman (26:18)
And I remember going over when it was like early in recovery and I didn't really have a concept of like trusting anything other than my brain, right? And my brain hadn't really helped me up until that point, right? I had continued to, you know, use harmful behaviors and use substances and alcohol and try to escape. And I went over after a couple of years of recovery and said, you know, I was gonna basically like prey on it and I was gonna give myself some grace or whatever breathing room.
And I remember her looking at me and my mom as well, like kind of looking at me wide-eyed, like what is she talking about? Like, and almost to the point of like maybe a little bit of laughter. I walked away from there feeling, I could have walked away from there feeling like, okay, maybe everything that I've been taught isn't what I should be doing, right? Like second guessing myself, my family knows me.
Like am I trusting this universe, God, whatever it is, power, faith, and I'm on Mars? Like that's what I walked away feeling. But instead, I leaned in and said,
The proof is in the pudding, okay? I am free from X, Y, and Z harmful behaviors for an extended period of time. And so me trusting, rather than trusting me and my own ideas and my own thoughts that tend to get me jammed up, trusting that maybe something is gonna guide me was really, really powerful. And was okay if they didn't really get on board with it. So permission to move a muscle, change a thought, do the woo-woo thing. Your family and your friends may think you're a little
you know, crazy. But that's okay.
Jill Griffin (27:47)
there. mean,
the alternative for these two, us two, this crazy is better than any previous crazy. So, you know, yeah, you have them tap in.
Molly Bierman (27:54)
Yeah, yeah, use your superpowers people, okay? Let's tap in, tap in.
Jill Griffin (28:01)
Well, thank you for joining us for another episode. Please follow along on YouTube at no permission necessary. We're on Instagram, Facebook, all the things and definitely follow along. Leave us a review on Apple or Spotify. Thank you.