"Neurospicy” Brains, Burnout & High-Functioning Women | Dr. Nancy Grechko

Apr 7

Episode 41 with Dr. Nancy Grechko

In this episode of No Permission Necessary, Jill and Molly are joined by Dr. Nancy Greco to explore what it means to have a “neuro-spicy” brain and why so many high-functioning women experience burnout.

They unpack how ADHD often presents differently in women, especially those who are high-achieving and used to masking their struggles through overperformance. The conversation highlights the impact of hormones, nervous system overload, and the pressure to maintain high levels of output across work, family, and life.

This episode offers a grounded perspective on how to better understand your brain, support your capacity, and build systems that actually work for you.

Website: http://drgrechko.com

Instagram: @dr.nancygrechko

Jill Griffin (00:00)
Welcome to No Permission Necessary. Dr. Nancy Greco is here with us today and she's a licensed psychologist and founder of Greco Training and Consulting.
Besides providing direct clinical care in her community with neurofeedback, she supports mental health practitioners and organizations through clinical consultation and continuing education training. She's come into my businesses and trained our clinicians and she is amazing. She's best known making even the most complex clinical concepts accessible people so they walk away with tangible tools to integrate into their practice. So this is an episode you don't wanna miss and learn more about neurofeedback.
Thanks so much for tuning in.
Jill Griffin (00:46)
All right. So I Molly and Nancy, you guys are meeting for the first time, but I've had the pleasure of working with Nancy just in this field in Connecticut, obviously, but recently she came and did a training with our staff around the lens therapy. And I remember reaching out to Molly like, you got to do this. Like it's fascinating.
Molly Bierman (00:53)
in the flesh.
Jill Griffin (01:09)
So why don't you just give us a little bit of like who you are, what you do, and maybe what people think you do versus what you actually do every day, because I know you're a woman who wears many hats.
Molly Bierman (01:16)
Thank you.
Nancy (01:19)
I love the last part of that question. That's really great point. You know, what I do versus what people think I do. So I'm a licensed clinical psychologist in the state of Connecticut. I have been in the field for almost 20 years, about 20 years, which is pretty wild. And that has ranged from in-home services, PHP, IOP, you know, working with really acute cases, working on an outpatient level, the director of clinical training, internship programs, you know, I was
I just did a supervisor training last week and I shared with people, I had supervisory roles and director roles when I had no business supervising other people, right? That's usually how it goes. No business, no business being in that role. But we just, we adapt, we roll with it. So I have been supervising and consulting for around 13 years leading people, which is pretty wild. And I was doing it in organizations. That's where you start.
Molly Bierman (01:55)
Right.
Jill Griffin (01:57)
⁓ yeah
Nancy (02:12)
And when I shifted to doing it privately, that's where my practice kind of exploded a little bit, especially when it comes to continuing education. That's how you and I probably met in terms of how we've connected in this state. That's how most people know me as like the continue education lady. And that came about because I was working in an organization where that was part of my job. It's like, okay, you're a staff psychologist. You have to do these trainings for the department and for the agency.
And people would say, like you're actually really good at it. You know, actually, right? I love that word. You're actually really good at it. And they would say, are you gonna do academia? Absolutely not. No interest in academia. I have no interest in teaching. And it's so different. What I do is so different than academia, right? Like we're not talking about theory. We're talking about what does this look like in the real world? You know, the worst thing is when you go to a training and then you're like, okay, great, but now what? What do I do with this information?
Molly Bierman (02:59)
Mm.
Nancy (03:05)
So that's why I started GTC, Greco-training and consulting, because that's my style of teaching. Like, I'm neuro-spicy. I want to know how things work. I want to know what it actually looks like. Like, don't just talk to me about numbers. You people think like, you're a psychologist. You do research. I do not do research. Like, statistics was my enemy. Like, that's just not how my brain works. Like, it's the worst. let's actually do something about it. Even my dissertation, my dissertation, like I did the research, but then I created a product. It's like, I don't want to just
Jill Griffin (03:24)
the worst.
Nancy (03:32)
add to the research field, like I want to do something with it. So that's just my style. So in terms of my everyday life, what I do, what I love about what I do is it's different every day. It's a little chaotic because it's different every day, but I am seeing neurofeedback clients with the lens. I am supervising a doctoral intern. So what's really cool about that is having a practicum training program within my practice is that I get to actually supervise and train folks the way I want to do it.
not the way the organization tells me to, which you know is a whole different level of freedom where you get to do things on your terms, where you're not just doing it because that's the way you're supposed to do it because we've always done it that way. I hate that. It's always been this way. I don't care. Like it doesn't work. It doesn't make sense to me. That's not, you know, that's not effective. So it's really nice to be in a place where I get to do things the way that I want to. And that includes the supervision of a trainee doing lens neurofeedback.
consulting for group practices and business owners on the visionary part. That's the part where I shine. Like if you want to set up your LLC and if you want to do credentialing, that's not me. I'm the visionary part. Like you have an idea, I'm going to help you execute, right? Like we don't just stay in the idea phase. Like we're going to get things rolling. And of course, CEs. we do, gosh, anywhere from two to 10 trainings a week, sorry, a month.
⁓ Even in terms of private trainings just on my own, mean, some months I'm doing 12 trainings a month. It's wild. It's really wild. But it shows how people, they are so eager to learn real world application. Like how many, like all these free CEs and low cost CEs, you get what you pay for, you know? They're very under stimulating and that's not what you get with our trainings. It's a lot of fun. We talk about tropics that other people aren't talking about.
women's health, hormone health, women with ADHD, chronic illness. I mean, we're talking about things that other people just aren't talking about. So I love what I do every day, but every day looks a little different. I bring neurofeedback on the road. I go to places, I came to you. I came to Waterview and did neurofeedback on your whole team. It was amazing. It's fun. I just love it.
Jill Griffin (05:35)
Yep.
I love Neuro Spicy. Can you tell me what that means? Because I'm probably, I feel like I probably am. What is that?
Molly Bierman (05:43)
I know.
Nancy (05:46)
nor spicy.
Well, for me personally, for me personally.
Molly Bierman (05:50)
You just want to be that.
We don't know if you are that, okay?
Nancy (05:53)
But your brain works a little differently, right? Different than the average bear. You're not neurotypical. You're not neurotypical. I already know. You're not neurotypical.
Jill Griffin (05:59)
See? See? She's
a psychologist. We're gonna go with her professional opinion, Molly. ⁓
Nancy (06:05)
In my professional opinion, you're not
neurotypical. And there's nothing wrong with being neurotypical, but when you're a neuro-spicy and you're around a lot of neuro-spicy people, because like calls to like, I believe, know, kind of like takes one to know one. And then you're like, oh yeah, your brain is different, right? I'm so used to being around neuro-spicy people that a part of me was like, are we all a little neuro-spicy? And then I sat with a neurotypical person, like a very business-minded person, a concrete processor. And I said, oh, okay, I see it.
Molly Bierman (06:15)
Hmm.
Nancy (06:32)
I see it. Like it's just different. So for me, NeuroSpicy is ADHD. I wasn't diagnosed until I was in my doctoral program. And even at that point, was like, do I, am I just taking the easy way out? Am I just taking the easy way out by taking medication, whatever it is? And now it's clear as day. Like the writing was on the wall. The evidence was always there. I've always been NeuroSpicy.
Molly Bierman (06:38)
Yes.
Jill Griffin (06:40)
Yeah.
What does that look like for women? Because I know you do trainings on this and what, how is that different in showing up in women? Because you did make some good points when you came and did the training around just ADHD and executive functioning in general and how we're all three of us on, and probably a lot of the listeners are high functioning people, right? So we're, we are functioning at higher levels. So when you get a diagnosis like ADHD,
Molly Bierman (06:58)
That is so interesting.
Nancy (07:01)
No, no, no,
huh.
Jill Griffin (07:22)
I feel like it's a little bit of a hit to the eagle. Like, what do you mean? Like I'm functioning great out here, but I also lose things a lot and I forget things a lot. And if we really look into the specifics of it all, the neuro spicy probably shows more to my husband than anything else, if we're being honest.
Molly Bierman (07:39)
Yes,
100%.
Nancy (07:40)
100%, 100%. I tell people, I'm like, listen, the more you get to know me, the weirder I will become, right? Like it will come out. If you know me as someone who's very prim and proper and like buttoned up, you don't know me very well, right? Like we're not there yet and that's okay. That's okay. Maybe we'll get there because that's where the silliness comes out. That's where like my husband.
He gives me permission to talk about him. like, let's just go, we'll square that out. Like, but he's like, there's baby being baby, right? Like Nancy being Nancy, like I just do silly things. I'll walk into walls. I'll forget things. Like I'll say just, I'm like, it is in terms of pro perception, in terms of just not paying attention. Yeah, we're, Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, when I'm at home, I have no physical boundaries. My husband,
Jill Griffin (08:13)
That's part of it?
Okay.
Molly Bierman (08:19)
Chill!
Nancy (08:26)
needs like his space in the kitchen, which is his own neuro spiciness, right? And I'm like reaching my arm over him. I'm like getting stuff I need. And he's like, let me be, what are you doing? But I just, I'm at home. I'm in my safe place and I'm being my weirdo self. I, there's just.
Molly Bierman (08:40)
That's so interesting,
because I feel like it's the opposite where I am comfortable doing that, like reaching over, but if someone's doing that to me, I'm like, hell no. Like I need some space here.
Nancy (08:50)
Well,
so the neuro spicy brain is really good at making up rules and you get really upset when other people don't follow these rules, but they don't know what the rules are. They're in your head and you're like WTF. What are you doing? You're messing with my life. You're ruining my life right now. So all of that. Yeah, with women. So what you're describing in terms of high functioning women, women are really good at executing.
Molly Bierman (08:55)
Yes. Okay.
Jill Griffin (08:56)
You
Molly Bierman (09:04)
Yes.
Nancy (09:15)
We're really good at masking. We're really good at being the good girls and doing what we need to do, of being perfect. A lot of us can use perfectionism as a shield for ADHD. We have high standards for ourselves, but we're also multi-passionate, which I'm sure you can identify with, right? Like you have this as your thing and that is your thing and you're going to execute it. And sometimes it's not so shiny. So like you hate it for a little bit, right? Like you love it until you hate it. But then that passion reignites.
Right? Like you come back to it. But the biggest thing for women with ADHD is hormones. Right? Your hormones do impact ADHD and whatever your neuro-spicy brain is doing. So for a lot of girls, they're not diagnosed until puberty because everything starts falling apart because your hormones are going haywire. Right? And then you're trying to survive. Your brain is really good at adapting. You're going to figure it out. Women are really, really good at figuring it out.
We're not gonna fall apart. And then let's just say you have a child, right? ADHD and motherhood, we're doing a whole training on this on April 24th, where all of those coping strategies, everything that you do to overcompensate goes out the window. And you're dealing with these hormonal fluctuations, right? So all of that's happening at the same time. The research, and I say research in quotes because research is mostly focused on men and it's just catching up within the last five years.
Now you say catching up generously, it's not really catching up. It's only within the last five years that we've been studying really well ADHD in women and hormones. They say that for men, ADHD gets better, right? For women, it gets worse. But I have a theory on this. My theory is that for men, maybe that impulsivity, like they're not jumping off the walls, maybe that gets a little bit better, maybe, but they could be out gambling, doing other things, like seeking that dopamine.
What I think is that we get partnered up and men now have a frontal lobe in their wives or in their partners. And for women, ADHD gets worse because our hormones change, especially after 40, right? 35, 40s, our hormones are changing. And now we are the frontal lobe for an entire family. So our ADHD gets worse, right? Right? That's my theory.
Molly Bierman (11:16)
This is like my life.
Jill Griffin (11:18)
Light bulbs
are going off for Molly.
Molly Bierman (11:21)
I'm
sitting here like, what is happening? Where have you been all my life? And how do you, how, I think I have a couple of questions. So, and I think it's, vulnerability is important in this episode. So for someone who has had a substance use disorder, there is a lot of stigma around amphetamine medication. And so historically,
Jill Griffin (11:25)
You
Nancy (11:41)
Mm-hmm.
Molly Bierman (11:44)
When people would get diagnosed or that there would maybe be a perception that somebody had ADHD, obviously what we talk a lot about in mine and Jill's space, and I'm sure yours as well, is there's been a lot of misdiagnosed ADHD kids, right? And so what will happen is that they'll get, they'll never get a proper assessment.
It'll be, are the behaviors they're exhibiting in the home and somebody will prescribe them an ADHD medication. And now the parents for 20 years have said their kid has ADHD, but they've never actually had a neuropsychological assessment whether or not they have ADHD. So say someone does get diagnosed with ADHD and there's ambivalence about taking amphetamine medication. Obviously there's alternatives as well, but there's a lot of data that says they're not as effective as amphetamine medication like
What is your stance? Because it sounds like you have a lot of knowledge and expertise in ADHD medication. And this is, know, disclaimer not to give any medical advice to the listeners, but really to just give an overarching, you know, you know, assessment of kind of what that looks like, especially with people who have primary substance use disorder.
Nancy (12:49)
Sure. In general, and yeah, I appreciate that disclaimer. Like I'm not here to give any medical advice, but I will stay even in my own family, right? Within my family, my husband and I are two neurodivergent parents, parenting two children who are neurodivergent. They're neuro spicy, right? Like one's almost three. We're not seeing it quite yet. Like that's too early, but you know, we won't be surprised. But my son is eight years old.
Jill Griffin (13:02)
you
Nancy (13:12)
We're seeing these challenges in school. And my first line of defense is not medication. I've been on those medications and I did not like how I felt, right? So again, this is just my personal experience, but also sharing clinical experience where parents say, I don't want my kid to lose their spark, right? Like when they take their meds, like they're just not the same, right?
My first approach is neurofeedback. So it's interesting how all of this is kind of coming together, but it's neurofeedback. And it's helped me, it's helped my entire family. And we do neurofeedback on my son. And he doesn't need medications, right? And again, I'm not saying that's the approach for everyone, but I would first try neurofeedback. Let's give the brain the information that it needs so that it can auto-correct, so that it can perform more optimally without medications. Because medications, for some folks, again, they're absolutely life-changing and life-saving. I would not...
be sitting here in front of you with a doctorate without medications. I wouldn't have gone through my doctoral program. I was like killing myself just to get through the work because my brain couldn't do it. I remember thinking to myself, I can't spend three hours studying like I used to in my undergrad, right? Like there's too much work, it's too fast paced. So it's absolutely life changing and life saving for a lot of people. And I wish I had known about neurofeedback. I probably couldn't commit to it at that time, realistically.
Molly Bierman (14:21)
Right.
Right.
Nancy (14:22)
But
that's what I would want, that's what I would recommend for folks. And when people are doing neurofeedback, again, we're supporting the brain naturally and you don't lose that razzle dazzle. You don't lose your spark. You're giving the brain the support that it needs. When it comes to substance use, I think for a lot of folks, this is just my theory, just my hot take. Substance use is an attempt towards self-regulation. Like you're trying to regulate yourself and...
Jill Griffin (14:46)
That's why I loved cocaine.
Nancy (14:47)
Right? How great. Like you're getting some information from your body, from your nervous system, you're regulating.
Molly Bierman (14:48)
Hot take.
Jill Griffin (14:48)
Cut take.
knew what I was doing. I was self-medicating
Molly Bierman (14:53)
Really.
Jill Griffin (14:57)
early on. I knew what I was doing. I've been a doctor all my life.
Nancy (15:00)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. What about the degree? So, you know, like, it's an attempt of self-regulation. So are we really surprised that folks with ADHD are using substances? No, not at all. That makes perfect sense to me. Makes perfect sense to me. But why not support the brain where it matters so that you don't need that?
Molly Bierman (15:00)
without the degree.
Nah, of course not. Right?
Jill Griffin (15:16)
Yeah.
Molly Bierman (15:16)
So
what's the barrier? sounds like neurofeedback has been around for how long? Let's start there.
Nancy (15:22)
So first,
like biofeedback, neurofeedback, we're talking about 50s and 60s. This is not new age stuff, folks. This is not new. This is not new.
Jill Griffin (15:27)
love you.
Molly Bierman (15:29)
Okay. And
what is the, why do you feel like it's not readily available or readily talked?
Nancy (15:35)
Do you want know my real answer?
Molly Bierman (15:37)
Yeah, of course. I think I know what your answer is going to be, but...
Jill Griffin (15:37)
Yeah.
Nancy (15:41)
Psychopharmaceuticals, Like medications. Medications.
Molly Bierman (15:44)
Yeah. Right. They're more readily available.
Yeah. And there's a bigger market for them naturally. So, you know, when you, in terms of kind of how you have really worked this through in your own life, it sounds like you have really had to become more in tune with your nervous system. So you're a mom, you're running a business, you're running 12, did you say 12 trainings a month? Yeah.
Nancy (15:48)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Molly Bierman (16:09)
I mean, that's a pretty extensive amount of trainings for those that are listening, especially the bandwidth that it takes to put those on, prepare for them. And then also just the amount of energy you have to hold in the population that you're training. Okay. And so how do you know when your system is out of alignment? What do you do? What are tips and tricks? Like, what are all the things?
Nancy (16:31)
All the things. So I will say at baseline right now, I'm realizing now that I'm 40, that I need more self-care just to exist in this body. Just for everyday use, just for everyday use. It takes a lot of work. She's high maintenance now. It's delicate system. I need the perfect amount of water, of electrolytes, of protein.
Molly Bierman (16:41)
Yes.
Jill Griffin (16:42)
Great.
Yeah.
Nancy (16:55)
like everything has to be in perfect balance just to exist, baseline. But then on those heavy lifting weeks, I do lens on myself, I do neurofeedback on myself every week, non-negotiable, non-negotiable. And I am working on the head, so we work on the head or on the body. So I work on the head. And then I'm also someone who lives with chronic pain. So I'm usually working on the body too. I live with endometriosis, I live with chronic pain, so I'm usually working on my body once every couple of weeks.
just to kind of get through it. When people are like, well, how do you do all the things that you're doing? It's neurofeedback, right? Like it's neurofeedback. My supplements that I have to take every single day. I do my red light therapy. I do my vibration plate. Like I lift three, four times a week. I walk as many days as I can, especially, you know, in the nicer weather. Like it takes a lot of work. And I know I'm heading towards
burnout, that rundown feeling where like I no matter how much sleep I'm getting, it's not enough, where my body just feels really heavy. I split up my day in two shifts. So I have my work shift that I'm in my office doing my professional stuff. And then I go into my second shift at home, right. And when I'm in second shift and I'm not playing with my kids, where I am, my body just feels so heavy, I was like, ⁓ like something's got to shift.
something's out of alignment, like my girl needs help, I've got to do something. And this week I felt that way. And then surprise, surprise, Jill and I were talking before you came on where last night my throat started killing me. I'm like, ⁓ here it is, here are the germs, right? When you're not fully up to speed, that's when you're more susceptible to the little kid germs that normally you can fight off no problem. But the last three months for me have been nonstop, like no room to breathe. It's been wild. So.
That's like my everyday, like that's my routine and sometimes it's a little bit more than others. And I'm taking some time now to pause and try to intentionally integrate what I call big ticket self care items into my monthly calendar. So next week I have a massage. This week I did somatic experiencing Reiki. That was quite the experience. That was wonderful, right? Like I do Reiki, I do Reiki every two to three weeks like.
Molly Bierman (18:59)
Thanks.
Nancy (19:03)
My energy's high maintenance. Like she needs to chill, right? Like she needs a lot of work. So it just needs a lot of work. It's a lot of work.
Molly Bierman (19:10)
Yeah. I think that it's so important to hear how people really truly high function, you know, because I think a lot of times
People think that maybe it's determination, it's just more willingness, you know, a variety of different things. And yes, I think ⁓ that's a part of it, but I agree. I tell people pretty regularly, someone being in recovery, you know, someone being in recovery too, you wake up and there's a lot more things you have to do to just be well and not be like selfish and...
self-centered and grumpy and all the things, right? But even more so now, as we start to transition into larger roles, taking care of your family system, even today, I was like, my God, I feel like I have so many little things to do and just not enough time, you know? And so how do I incorporate it while also maybe sitting in the sauna or going for a walk or
Nancy (19:48)
Hmm?
Jill Griffin (20:10)
you
Molly Bierman (20:11)
doing a voice memo instead of having to be on my phone, right? Like little tips and tricks. So it's been really helpful for you to give us that feedback and understand it a little bit more. What would you say is one thing about, I think a lot of people have this idea that people have gone through an immense amount of trauma in our space, right? A lot of people are starting to talk about.
trauma, whether that's adolescent trauma, whether that's larger trauma than adulthood, et cetera, et cetera. So how do you feel as though that impacts the work you do and the bandwidth for people to be able to do the work you do? Is there a limit? Is there a preparation phase? you help identify kind of where the person should start? mean, how does it correlate with
Nancy (20:39)
Ahem.
Molly Bierman (21:04)
a lot of the conversations around trauma and people really diagnosing themselves with trauma and complex PTSD on a regular basis or social media.
Nancy (21:12)
Mm-hmm. So within our own field, I think a lot of us have experienced adversity, trauma. I nobody's going through life without some adversity, right? Like we are on like this earth school to experience life in its totality and all the varying experiences. And for those of us who've experienced trauma, and sure, I fall into that category. I think it deepens the richness of the conversations and the empathy.
that we can experience for people, just the understanding of suffering, right? And what I tell people all the time when I'm talking to clinicians, when I'm talking to business people, you don't have to completely identify with someone's lived experience in order to understand human suffering. If you understand human suffering, that is enough, right? Like that is...
really rich for compassion for other people, being able to step away from judgments, be able to sit in that experience. And when it comes to the work that we do, it's hard because so much of our work is outside of ourselves, right? Like you are outside of yourself throughout the entirety of your day, whether you're helping clients, programs, you're on a micro level, macro level, you're helping your family, it doesn't matter.
what you're feeling on the inside almost comes second, right? Like you have a pulse on it. You're not completely disconnected. You're not dissociated, hopefully. But you are in service of people outside of yourself or in service of a mission outside of yourself. And it's really important for us not only to keep a pulse on that, but to check in intentionally. Because without touching base with yourself, without tuning in, you can unintentionally cause harm to yourself and to other people.
because you don't have, you may be exceeding your bandwidth, your capacity. You may be sharing things of yourself or crossing certain boundaries that should be a little bit more tightened up. It's holding myself and holding you at the same time. And what that looks like for a lot of us is, and I will speak to my own experience, I can't watch the news. I just can't. I can't watch the news. I have to limit social media.
Jill Griffin (22:46)
you
Thank
Nancy (23:10)
There are certain groups of people who I know, I can touch base with you here and there periodically, small doses, right, but you're not my everyday people because it can be really draining. I have to really know myself, which is really important, and I have to know where my capacity is. So you're talking about like all these little things that you know that you have to do, and we always have that list going, right? Like the list never goes away.
And I was listening to one of your prior episodes where, ⁓ my gosh, Jill, you were talking about the reminders that you had and like the list of reminders. was like, girl, that's too much. Like from my brain, that's too much. But I have my own system. Well, exactly. then, but if I were to tell you my systems, if I were to tell you mine, you did it. Yeah. If I were to tell you my systems, you'd probably be like, how does that work for you? I don't get it. You know, our brains need different things.
Jill Griffin (23:41)
That's how my brain can only function.
Molly Bierman (23:44)
Maybe we need narrow feedback, Jill.
Jill Griffin (23:49)
I did it once.
Nancy (23:57)
But you have to know how your brain works. You're like, my brain needs that. Good for you, Jill. You know what your brain needs. You have to work with your brain and know where your capacity is. There have been times where I've said to my husband, I can't take on one more thing. You're the captain of that ship. Not today. Not today. ⁓ Making that phone call, not gonna happen. I can't even think of picking up that phone right now. It seems monumental.
Molly Bierman (24:13)
Yes.
Jill Griffin (24:22)
The phone is
the worst for me. The phone, it's like, ugh, I can't do it. I can't do it. ⁓
Nancy (24:27)
No. And then you want me to
call an insurance company? Get out of here. It's not happening. No. No. No. Rage. Done.
Jill Griffin (24:30)
Once that hold music comes on, I'm out. I'm out.
Molly Bierman (24:31)
No.
They do have a new feature.
Have you guys experienced it yet? When you're on hold on an iPhone, if they're, you know, if the other company is what you want to hold, you can click a button and it will only, it's so you don't have to listen to the music and it will notify you when that person comes back on. So food for thought there.
Jill Griffin (24:42)
Yes, you can, yes.
Nancy (24:50)
Love, love, love, love.
But I think that's huge, like knowing yourself and all the layers of yourself, knowing your trauma, knowing your reactions, your hot buttons, knowing how to take care of yourself, knowing what your capacity is on any given day. Because the other thing about being a human and also a neuro spicy human is your capacity is not the same every day. Stop, and this is true for women too, especially as we go through a cycle, stop acting like you're supposed to have the same output every single day.
Jill Griffin (24:52)
Yeah.
Nancy (25:16)
That's not realistic. It's just not realistic. I'm speaking to you. And that's hard.
Jill Griffin (25:19)
Molly needs that. Molly needs that.
Molly Bierman (25:22)
I'm gonna be calling Nancy offline. I mean,
we're gonna be having conversations.
Nancy (25:27)
It's-
Jill Griffin (25:28)
This was actually an intervention for Molly. She didn't know it, but it was. You're welcome.
Nancy (25:34)
But this is the hardest for high
achieving, and I'll say high achieving women because it's like, well, I did this yesterday. I better do it today. Keep it going. Keep it moving. Keep it going. And your output is not going to be the same every day because your capacity is different. Now you have a sick kid at home. You know, now you've got, you know, DPH coming at your door, right? You're at this phase in your cycle where your energy output just isn't there. Like we are not.
Jill Griffin (25:53)
Yeah.
Nancy (25:59)
We are not connected to ourselves and it's really a disservice.
Jill Griffin (26:02)
Well, you know, what's funny about that is even just this week alone, I've been really, when I'm in the flow and I'm in a good place, I am checking in consistently, right? Where's my energy at? What do I have the bandwidth? I have my list. What am I, what is realistic today? Cause if it gets shelved on the two, I'll get to that list or it's like, I need to get to this now, right? And
This week I took an extra, I took an extra rest day. Cause I was like, my body, I can't do it. And normally I just put, I will just push through, but I felt so much better taking the extra rest day. But then I canceled this lunch and I was like, I'm looking at my calendar. waited till the last minute to cancel. And I'm like thinking in my head, I hate letting people down. I hate canceling on these things. But also if I don't cancel this, I'm not going to get any, like I need to have this time back.
And you know what? Thank God I listened to my gut around it because that DPH did show up and I'm glad that I wasn't in another town, you know, away from the program. but I think there is this expectation and I think it goes with perfectionism, but also an expectation that we put on ourselves. And I think it happens even more if you own your own business, because we talk about this a lot. There's no one holding me accountable.
Nancy (27:00)
No?
Jill Griffin (27:19)
If I don't get those things done in terms of the business and no one, no one's going to know unless their paycheck doesn't get deposited, right? That's, that's really when other people are going to see my dysfunction. Otherwise I can put stuff off. can procrastinate. So I'm wondering for you, when you transition from agency work, which we've all been in agency work and we know how that goes and
Nancy (27:27)
Okay.
Jill Griffin (27:42)
Accountability looks different in those roles. But what was a moment of truth for you when you switched into owning your own business and something that you had to maybe let go of, something that you had to get out of your own way to do in the business?
Nancy (27:59)
Hmm.
I, you know, that's a really interesting question because I had to let go of a lot. I had to unlearn so much. And it was like, it was very much a shedding. It was definitely a shedding of what I thought I needed to be in order to be successful. Because you're right, there's no one holding you accountable. And that's why for the first few years, nobody heard about me, right? Like people were like, Nancy Greco, Nancy Greco. like, you didn't hear about me for the first few years because.
I wasn't as disciplined as I needed to be. I was in my own way of like, why me? Or how am I supposed to do that? Like, who am I to do this or to do that? Who am I to speak in front of a hundred people? And now I'm like, yeah, I can do that. No problem, right? I had to get out of my own way. I had to shed who I thought I was supposed to be, especially as a psychologist, as a female psychologist, neuro-spicy female psychologist, highly masking, perfectionistic female psychologist. It's like, I'm the psychologist and I'm here to do it, right? Like very buttoned up and...
how I thought I was supposed to be. And the more I shed that and just worked with what I got and who I am and kind of take it or leave it attitude, well, fancy that. That's when everything just started coming through my doors, right? Which is so interesting. I had to let go of this persona of who I thought I needed to be. And the more authentic I was, the more I attracted the right people to me, which is amazing, which is really amazing. Yeah.
Jill Griffin (29:15)
I love that.
Molly Bierman (29:17)
How does it show
up in, you have small children, and so a lot of times when we're rediscovering ourselves, reclaiming ourselves, whether that's in business, whether that's in relationships, how does it show up in community as you start to engage with other parents that are your children's friends? You know, like how does that, how do we protect our peace when maybe we don't align?
Nancy (29:20)
Mm-hmm.
Molly Bierman (29:40)
with a family, but our kids really like their kids. I think that that's such a, I feel like this is something that I'll be going through fairly soon, because I also have small children, and it's something that's discussed, but I don't really feel as though anyone's given me the roadmap. So do you have thoughts, recommendations?
Jill Griffin (29:51)
You know.
Nancy (30:01)
That's a hard one because, well, as a parent, there's no one way, right? And it depends on your kid and your kid's temperament, right? Like my kids are totally different, totally, totally different. And my older son, he's my deep feeler, my deep thinker. So I have to be very delicate with how I communicate with him and what I tell him and what I don't tell him, because he's gonna take it to heart. He's gonna feel it very deeply. But we've been in this situation where he really likes a couple of kids.
And in my head, I'm like, bad news, right? Like, I don't like where this is going. And like, as a parent, I see the other parent and I'm like, please don't make me socialize with them, right? Like, and I'm an introvert and I'm like, ⁓ I do so much socialization that I don't want to for you, for my children, for the betterment of my children.
Jill Griffin (30:32)
Mm-hmm.
you
Don't send me to
a birthday party. The worst. The worst.
Nancy (30:47)
the worst.
We have one this weekend and I'm like, my husband's the captain of that ship. I'll be home on toddler duty. Like, you're the captain of that ship. Have fun. It's just too much. And it's at a bounce park. Like, no, I can't. It's too much. It's too much. So it's hard because I want to protect my child and I want to instill the values that we have within our family and I need him to learn through his experience. So this is the delicate balance of
Jill Griffin (30:50)
Yeah.
Nancy (31:12)
I want to talk to you about what a good friend is and what we look for and how we want to feel when we're with our friends, right? Because I'm noticing a pattern where you don't feel really great when you're around these kids, but like they're cool kids and you want it like, right? Like they do fun things and whatnot. I also want you to notice that these things don't really align with our family values. Like that's not how we talk in our family. Those aren't things we say in our family.
I can't control, and I tell my son, I can't control everything you do. And when you go on play dates and you're playing, like I can't control everything that you're doing. And I want you to know who you are. And I want you be true to your heart. We talk a lot about your heart, right? Like what's in your heart?
That's not like advice per se, but it's holding both. It's holding where you can control and letting go of where you can't. Because the more we try to exert control over our children and their lives and what they're doing and what they're not doing, the more they're going to want to assert themselves. Yeah, that's their job. Their job is to test those limits. So it's like, what are the non-negotiables where you're like, hell no, like, we're not doing that. Like, I won't let you do that. And then what do you say?
Jill Griffin (32:03)
bell.
Molly Bierman (32:07)
Yeah.
Nancy (32:15)
All right, we need to play this out. I need to see how this unfolds and be with you when that heartache comes.
Molly Bierman (32:20)
and
Jill Griffin (32:20)
So for
me, when I talk about those non-negotiables, it's always in terms of safety with my kids, right? Like there are safety non-negotiables. And then in terms of the values, it's like, if you are lying, scheming, if there is this like dishonesty piece to me that raises red flags, why are we doing that? Now we have to pull back and have a conversation and maybe put some boundaries in place because is this influenced by a friend? Like what's happening here?
Nancy (32:27)
Thank you.
Molly Bierman (32:27)
Right.
Jill Griffin (32:48)
So now we have to a boundary in place or a consequence, right? But I like how you explained holding both because I don't, wouldn't have said it so eloquently, but that's definitely what I do with my oldest. had, we've had some, she's a girl. So once you have a girl, that's a whole nother ball game because starting at around seven, there is girl drama and the girl drama is something that
Nancy (32:48)
Okay.
Bye.
Jill Griffin (33:12)
I was a victim of bullying and all that stuff through middle school. So I feel like part of it's my own stuff that I have also holding of like, I want to protect you from what I went through. But it's also not putting that on her that that's automatically going to be her experience either because I do therapy with those clients. I know what that looks like when they grow older. So what I can say is,
Molly Bierman (33:16)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy (33:21)
Hello?
Jill Griffin (33:36)
I have had these conversations and when I look through the text messages, because I monitor the digital space, because again, safety boundary, I can see her standing up for herself when there's things that those girls are saying that she doesn't like, that talking about other people and saying this isn't a nice thing to do, right? Because we talk about what those values are and how you, how would you feel if someone heard what you were texting or saying?
Nancy (33:45)
Mm-hmm.
Jill Griffin (34:03)
to their face because if you are not comfortable saying it to their face, then you need to not be hearing it or saying it behind their back. That's the reality. And so that those are the moments where I'm like, all right, I might still feel uneasy about these relationships, but she has to experience it herself. I mean, it's true because all those things are going to lead up to making her more resilient, having her own lived experience with those things. The parents though,
Nancy (34:04)
And then...
Molly Bierman (34:10)
Right? Right.
Nancy (34:18)
Mm-hmm.
Jill Griffin (34:30)
I feel like not drinking helps, honestly, because I think they think we're a little, and I'm very open with people in our community about sobriety, but like we don't get asked to do some things, I think, because of that, which is okay.
Nancy (34:33)
Bye.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Molly Bierman (34:43)
I feel as though this is the conversation that people need support in having. Because there's so much being thrown at us on a daily basis of how do we show up in the space? How do we make sure that our children are safe? How do we instill values? It's a lot to hold. And so when you talk about neuro spiciness, which essentially
is my new definition. I'm telling my husband when he gets home from work.
you know, it's just been really impactful to hear you and learn that there is a way that you can harness that energy, still keep the spark, while also having some level of boundaries with like what you're good at and what you're not. I think there's also this whole concept that everyone is good at everything because you see all these things on social media and you see the balanced mom with the...
who's holding the leadership position and who's doing this and those highlight reels, although everyone can say it's the highlight reel and it's not something that is the full picture, we get sucked in. So in terms of social media, I mean, I'm the first to delete the app if I'm feeling overwhelmed. I did it at the beginning of the week, Instagram off my phone for three days. And again, then I'm meeting myself up because I'm like, I'm not sharing podcast clips. I'm not sharing.
Nancy (35:45)
Hmm.
Molly Bierman (36:00)
for Jill's birthday or whatever, right? Like the random things that we think about, but my energy could not function unsociably at the beginning of the week. I was in a hole.
Nancy (36:09)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jill Griffin (36:13)
Shut it down. Shut it down.
Nancy (36:14)
Yeah,
good for you. Delete. There's nothing wrong with that. And guess what? The world continues.
Molly Bierman (36:15)
Delete. Yeah. Yeah.
Jill Griffin (36:18)
Delete. No permission.
Yeah, no permission necessary. Delete the app.
Nancy (36:22)
Yeah,
Molly Bierman (36:22)
Right.
Nancy (36:23)
delete the app.
Molly Bierman (36:24)
I had to. I had to. And so to, you know, we've had so many good questions and this has been such a fantastic episode, but what's something no one told you about being a high achieving woman, someone who is an entrepreneur building a business while raising kids?
Nancy (36:42)
And I will also add to that, no village, we have no village. Yeah, no childcare, right? Like the only childcare we have is the school system. That's it. It's literally just my husband and I.
Molly Bierman (36:47)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy (36:53)
So in a positive direction and kind of like a negative direction, no one told me that the pressure would be this great.
Because stress, sure, like stress of everyday life, stress of motherhood, stress of owning your own business. But when, I feel like the pressure is different. It's the pressure, it's like the invisible audience, the eyes. I feel like there are a lot of eyes on me, right? So as the psychologist who does CE credits, like there's pressure. People are used to a certain amount, a certain quality, right? A certain vibe, right? I have to make sure I measure up.
as a parent, so even when you're around other parents, they almost act a little differently because they think the psychologist is watching them and judging their parenting. It's like, I'm just here on the blacktop picking up my kid, right? I don't care what you're doing. As long as you're not causing harm, I'm not judging anybody. So just feels like there's more pressure, there's more eyes. As a mom, right, there's more pressure, there's more eyes. My husband and I used to joke because he would go do pickup and I'm like, all you have to do is show up.
but I have to show up in a different outfit than I did the other day because I'm I'm neuro spicy. I wear the same five outfits over and over again because I don't have the brain power to be creative with my clothing. know, like there just feels like there's always these invisible eyes, this pressure. That is very real. But also in terms of like the positive aspect of it, I really did not realize how important
powered and how badass I was going to be at this whole mom business thing. my husband said to me the other day, we were talking something out and he's like, please be nice. And I was like, I'm sorry. And I was in boss mode, right? Like I was in work mode. It's like, this is what we got to do. This is how it's like. And I was ready to execute. And he was like, can you please soften a little bit? Right. Like I was not boss mode when I first started that that was a skill. That's something I leaned into.
And I remember thinking after I gave birth, I was like, can, can we swear? Okay, I can fucking do anything. Okay, like I just gave birth, right? And when I went into a program and I was gonna switch things up, I did not care. Cause I was like, I'm a mom, I can do anything. Are you kidding me? Do not underestimate me. Like I did not have, I was like, ⁓ like who am I to think of this? And I always made myself small. And I was like, no, no, I can do anything.
Molly Bierman (38:45)
Yeah.
Jill Griffin (38:46)
Absolutely.
Molly Bierman (38:59)
Totally. Uh-huh.
Jill Griffin (39:01)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy (39:08)
I could do anything. And I truly believe that. No permission necessary. Love it. Yeah, I could do anything. And I truly believe that and embody that. Where sometimes somebody will present something to me and I always tell people like, listen, shoot your shot. If you're like, hey, would you consider, would you want to? Yeah, I'll consider it. I could do that. I've never done it before, but I know I'll figure it out. Like I know I can do it and I will do it well. I did not have that anything before.
Jill Griffin (39:10)
No permission necessary.
You mentioned
the boss mode with your husband and one thing we didn't mention is that your husband works for you essentially in one of the hats that he wears. ⁓ He does the lens therapy with first responders.
Nancy (39:41)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yes. Yep. He sure does, though.
Molly Bierman (39:46)
amazing. How is it
working with your husband? Because I have experience.
Nancy (39:52)
So my husband's a police officer and I started doing Lens on him and he was like, wow, this is amazing. We need to bring this to police officers, to veterans. So he's not a clinical person, even though he's psychologically minded. He's not a clinical person. He doesn't have a clinical license. So he has to work under my license. I take my license very seriously. I take my name very seriously. So we had some growing pains.
Molly Bierman (39:58)
That's so cool.
Nancy (40:15)
We had some growing pains. I had some tears of like, wait, why did we do this? Was this a mistake? And then we just had to keep that mission in mind. Like, no, no, no, this is the mission. Like stay true to the mission. And we adapted and we had to let go of our egos, right? On my part and on his part where, and be really vulnerable where, you know, my husband, is he the most vulnerable guy on the planet? No, of course not. He's a veteran. He's an army veteran. He's a police officer.
Molly Bierman (40:31)
Enough?
Nancy (40:42)
He is not very psychologically, emotionally expressive in the way that I sometimes need him to meet me. And we both had to practice more vulnerability. And now we're at the point where he's like, okay, that makes sense, cool. That's what I'm gonna do. And he's like, listen, you just tell me what to do, I'm along for the ride, right? But we've had to come a long way and we had to do that together in the trust because at first it was like, my gosh, you're controlling everything I do. It's like,
Molly Bierman (41:00)
You've had to get there. Yeah.
Nancy (41:07)
Let me tell you why. Let me tell you why this is important, why my license is important, why this work is so important, why the impact that we have in our community is so important. Once he understood the why and that this wasn't a personal thing of me trying to control his moves, but this is our mission and this is why we have a certain level of integrity and standard, then it made sense. And then we could be more trusting and vulnerable.
Jill Griffin (41:29)
Because I love you, but the work that I had to do to get this license, I'm not giving that up for anything, OK?
Nancy (41:35)
Uh-uh. Mm-mm. Nope.
Molly Bierman (41:36)
Of course not. Wow, so impactful.
mean, that is, and the work that you're doing to soften, create space, create emotional vulnerability in uniformed professionals. I mean, what a impactful purpose. You know, I mean, I just feel like there's so many areas that this work could really penetrate to create alignment and create unity.
in our communities, in our nation as a whole. you know, shout out to you for blazing a trail and your husband. That's so, so awesome. I love that. I love that. So our script generated a little rapid fire and I thought we would do it because we have the time and it sounds really fun. ⁓ So these will be questions that aren't necessarily.
Nancy (42:09)
Thank you.
Okay.
Molly Bierman (42:23)
totally aligned with the episode, more so some hacks that you have. the first question is, is your most overrated? What is the most overrated wellness trend that you see out in the world?
Jill Griffin (42:38)
you
Nancy (42:38)
⁓ I know.
Molly Bierman (42:40)
Okay, good.
Nancy (42:40)
I mean, it's more of a skincare thing, but those eye patch thingies, they're not helping no one. They're not.
Molly Bierman (42:43)
Yeah.
Jill Griffin (42:46)
But I had them on this morning after I saw that clip yesterday. I know that.
Molly Bierman (42:48)
You
Nancy (42:51)
Like put some Vaseline on it, put some like beef tallow on it. Like that's gonna help. You don't need those fancy patches, you know, to put under your eyes.
Molly Bierman (42:55)
okay.
So beef tallow is now gonna depuff my under eyes.
Nancy (43:06)
Well, beef tallow is gonna moisten it up in terms of de-puffing ice. Ice and ice roller, like put... Yeah.
Molly Bierman (43:11)
Yeah, I know. Just dump your face in an ice bucket. It's
always a good hack. I don't know, I was doing that for a while. My skin was looking good too. See, these are the things, the neuro spiciness.
Jill Griffin (43:14)
What happened to that trend you were doing? Didn't last long.
Nancy (43:22)
Yeah, you love it until you don't. But also like, of so many things that we are programmed to believe that we can fix that are your genetics and life, right?
Jill Griffin (43:22)
Yeah.
Molly Bierman (43:31)
Okay,
well this goes in line with the next rapid fire question. Underrated tool for nervous system regulation.
Nancy (43:37)
Underrated tool for nervous system regulation. Besides lens neurofeedback, just a little unplug there, your breath.
Molly Bierman (43:44)
Exactly, that's what I was gonna say. I'm so glad I got that one.
Nancy (43:45)
Your breath. Like
Jill Griffin (43:47)
You have
it everywhere you go!
Nancy (43:48)
you have it everywhere you go. Like you don't need to think about it. Your breath. Connect to your breath. Yeah.
Molly Bierman (43:50)
Yes. Yes.
that was good. A belief you had to unlearn to grow your business.
Nancy (43:58)
that I needed to perform a certain way, that I needed to be buttoned up, that I needed to be like the super professional. Like authenticity is where it's at,
Molly Bierman (44:07)
Ugh. And honestly, those are the episodes that do the best on this podcast. Is the messy, the dysfunctional, but also, you know, when we come into our clarity. What's one thing that you do daily that actually moves to the needle?
Jill Griffin (44:07)
Just do it messy.
you
Nancy (44:23)
Besides coffee, coffee moves the needle.
Jill Griffin (44:24)
Nancy loves,
Nancy loves coffee.
Nancy (44:27)
I love coffee. I love coffee. Okay, what I've been doing...
Molly Bierman (44:29)
How many cups are
we talking though? How many cups are we talking on the coffee? A day.
Nancy (44:33)
⁓
like three. Yeah. I mean, big cups of coffee, so probably like four to five, you know, realistically.
Molly Bierman (44:35)
Okay. I feel like that's fair. Look at Joe.
Jill Griffin (44:43)
I
feel like we're pushing.
Molly Bierman (44:44)
jill sits back
in her chair and pushes away from her desk, she's like, okay
Jill Griffin (44:49)
We're pushing like
five now. I might be self-medicating with the caffeine at this point, but I do want to say that I quit nicotine in August. We are now in March. I quit nicotine in August. And I will say that since then, which let's be clear, this is probably the 10th time I've quit nicotine in my life, but for good, we're going to put that out there.
Nancy (44:54)
I'm here.
Mmm.
Molly Bierman (45:08)
Yes.
Jill Griffin (45:11)
I have slowly increased my caffeine use and it probably is part of my neuro spicy thing because I never used to really have caffeine in the afternoon. I must have it now. And it's not just an addiction thing. think it's my brain needs it like too.
Nancy (45:24)
Yeah, you're
looking for a stimulant.
Jill Griffin (45:25)
and I can't do cocaine anymore. So that seemed to work pretty well in college until it didn't.
Nancy (45:31)
and you're looking for a stimulus. My brain functions really well on a stimulant. Like my brain needs to wake up. No. No. No. No, no, no.
Molly Bierman (45:37)
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Jill Griffin (45:40)
But Adderall,
it's too much. We can't be doing math anymore.
Molly Bierman (45:44)
So coffee is one thing that moves the needle and one other, one other.
Nancy (45:51)
So this is newer to me.
but I do love the vibration plate. I know that's a big wellness trend I do.
Molly Bierman (45:55)
hoping you
were going to say that. I was hoping you were going to say that so it could justify that I'm going to buy one after this.
Jill Griffin (45:56)
does it do? Can we talk about what does though?
Nancy (46:01)
Yeah, mean, listen, I've done all the things. There is not a wellness thing that I won't try, like almost, right, within reason.
Molly Bierman (46:07)
right, that's what i- i was getting those vibes so i was like, okay, she-
i was really manifesting you saying the vibration bl-
Jill Griffin (46:12)
But what does it do?
Nancy (46:14)
Okay, so let me tell you. So the vibration plate, especially in the morning for a neuro-spicy person, it wakes up the nervous system. Okay? So it wakes me up, also chronic pain, so it loosens up my joints, my muscles, like I feel looser. I love to do it transitioning to second shift because, you know, I'm on my laptop, I'm doing all the things, I'm in work mode. It literally shakes it out for me before going into second shift, which is really nice. I just can't do it past
2 30 because then I can't sleep because my nervous system's more awake. So lymphatic drainage, loosening, you know, all the muscles. Great for me waking up the nervous system. Like that's for me, that's that moves the needle. So coffee.
Molly Bierman (46:54)
How many minutes
are we talking and can you just dance? And would that suffice?
Nancy (46:59)
So, mine turns off after 10 minutes. I feel so good on it, I will run it for another 10 minutes. And I'm talking high, but also with my neuro-spicy brain, I need high input. I've learned that about myself. I need high input. Like the weighted blankets, the weighted dinosaur, like I need high input. Where other people, they might not be able to tolerate that. And they're good on lower medium after five, 10 minutes. I want all I can get. that's just my body. And...
Dancing can do it for sure. Dancing can do it for sure. This is kind of like greater impact, right? Greater impact in a short amount of time, like you're getting on the vibration plate. But when you are dancing, even physically shaking it out yourself, like that's activating the vagus nerve. We are supposed to move stress through our body. So that works too. This is kind of like, it's kind of like doing the dancing. If you were to dance for an hour versus getting on the vibration plate for 10 minutes.
right, like in terms of greater impact. Yeah, it's good stuff.
Molly Bierman (47:53)
Deal. Done. Buy one. That's it. That's it. That's it. Jill,
Jill Griffin (47:54)
We're going to now be buying one today. So that's it. This was
Molly Bierman (47:59)
you wanna do, permission?
Jill Griffin (47:59)
such a great episode. This was such a great episode. And every episode we didn't prep you for this, but we do a permission slip. So for our audience. So, what would you give permission to the audience?
Nancy (48:07)
Okay. Mm-hmm.
So based on what we've been talking about today for sure and just what I'm leaning into is permission to be your weird self, be that authentic weird self, let that weirdo self shine. Like in our home, being weird is not a bad word. Like we're cool with that. Like you can't call people other things, but like that's not an insult. Like I love my weird self. Permission to be weird. You're welcome.
Jill Griffin (48:35)
Love that. for coming
Molly Bierman (48:35)
I love it. Thank you so much.
Jill Griffin (48:38)
and spending the hour with us. And for everyone listening, please continue to leave a review, download our episodes, follow us on Instagram at no permission necessary. And thanks for listening.
Molly Bierman (48:50)
See you next time.