The Double Standard of Being an Ambitious Woman

Episode 50 with Jill Griffin & Molly Bierman

In this episode of No Permission Necessary, Jill and Molly explore the assumptions, comments, and double standards that often show up for women who are building businesses, leading teams, raising families, and navigating ambitious seasons of life.

They discuss the difference between genuine curiosity and investigative questioning, how gossip can distort someone’s story, and why women are often asked to explain or defend decisions that men may not be questioned for. The conversation also highlights the importance of asking for help without shame and staying grounded in your own values when others misunderstand the life you are building.

This episode is a reminder that ambition does not need to be softened to make other people comfortable.

• TRANSCRIPTION

  Jill Griffin (00:19)

  today are going to talk about, I'm gonna,

  put you on the hot seat a little bit only because I feel like it's recent for you. we're going to talk about the things that people have the nerve to say to us as women who own businesses that they wouldn't dare to say to our husbands or any other man for that matter.

  Molly Bierman (00:40)

  Yeah, I really grappled with this the last couple of days. So, some of my experience has been

  someone's coming up to you, they're not necessarily curious in what you do and how you can collaborate and how you can work together, but they're more so feeling investigative, if that makes sense. So feeling, like you get an icky feeling of not really feeling this like authentic connection. It feels more, investigative, I guess is the best word I can say.

  Jill Griffin (01:09)

  how I feel it is that you're coming to me with a preconceived notion that you're looking to verify. That's kind of how it feels sometimes. Like, you've been either told something or you've assumed something, and now you're coming for verification. It's not, yeah, you're not curious. You're not genuinely wondering what I do.

  Molly Bierman (01:17)

  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

  Right,

  so I had this interaction. I was at a networking event where gentleman came up to me who's a friend, colleague, and said, hey, like, how's it going? And it was a little bit of small talk. And then I had described some of the ventures that I'm involved in all under.

  my business with my two partners and we have a few different arms of our business which has been really invigorating very fulfilling. And unbeknownst to me apparently have people have opinions and so

  he had said very explicitly, said, cause I heard you're working, you know, five different jobs. And I looked at him and I said, I don't really know what you mean. Like, are you talking about the different service lines or is there someone feeling like they don't understand what I do?

  So while I was in the conversation, I was zooming out on it and I was thinking about it as I left And I said, you know what? I'm watching so many individuals, women and men, but a lot of men who have so many different

  ventures, right? Have so many different arms of their life and so many different businesses and so many different things are involved in. And it felt very uncomfortable for me that it was not something that if the roles had been reversed or if I was a man, that that conversation feels like it wouldn't have happened. And I walked away from it feeling like, okay,

  It is what it is, right? But it's just information for me to really say, where am I? How do I stand on my values? How do I stand in my business? How do I stand on principle? And also if people are curious, this is like a PSA. If people are curious about our businesses, our life, up the phone, right?

  So I walked away from that situation really

  I don't know, confused. I think that's the best word. It didn't knock me, but it made me feel confused and really did make me think about things a little bit differently.

  Jill Griffin (03:26)

  So I've had this experience over the last, I would say more prominently over the last five years. And I don't think that I really paused to see why it upset me so much. And now I can kind of take a step back. And I think my husband finally understands this, but

  my husband works in the field. He's more front-facing with a lot of people. So for years, I would say about a decade now.

  I have been known as Alan's wife.

  Which fine, I am his wife, that's fine. I am also somebody who has a master's degree and I hold multiple licenses in this field to practice mental health and behavioral health. And I have things that I've accomplished, right? I'm not just a wife.

  So once I opened, I've owned the group practice for eight years now. And once I started hiring staff and blah, blah.

  There was this thing that would happen where he would relate to me, people saying, ⁓ I referred somebody to your business. I referred somebody to your, and they owe it. It was like, I was not involved. It was like his thing. And the way that it was framed, and he would always say to me, like, why is this bothering you so much? Like, it's ours. And I'm like, OK, it's not really ours, though.

  And it's ours in terms of like, yes, I couldn't get to where I am without him. And I think that's what he was kind of saying. But it's not about that. It's like, why is somebody picking up the phone and talking to you and not calling me the owner of this place

  Do they think you're running this and I'm just working in this? Like, this is my baby. This is my business. This is mine. And so I finally was like, I would really love that you reiterated to people that like, I am the owner and you are not. And he got a little offended at that. But I was like, if the situation was reversed, no one would ever, let's just say that I was a stay at home mom.

  Molly Bierman (04:58)

  you are.

  Jill Griffin (05:21)

  Let's just say I wasn't even in the field? Or even if I was, I don't think anybody would come to me and say like, ⁓ and assume it was mine.

  Molly Bierman (05:28)

  Well, you know, I've had tons of examples around this, right? So I had started my career independently of anyone. mean, a desire to work in behavioral health. Started from the bottom, for sure. Very, very lowest bottom possible. And started to really grow and obviously, you know,

  Jill Griffin (05:39)

  Start it from the bottom. Now we're here, okay?

  a pretty low bottom.

  Molly Bierman (05:53)

  at one point I was working with my husband for ⁓ many years, right? So we were working together in one agency, then we opened up a separate agency and I ran that agency, but we were in tandem for roughly seven years. And when we sold the location that I ran, the rumors...

  And the rhetoric that traveled was truly epic. It was, we were getting divorced. Okay. It was, that I was going to then work for, go back to work for the current agency that he and his partner's own. There were so many different assumptions. And so what I really,

  Jill Griffin (06:21)

  boy, I didn't hear that one.

  Molly Bierman (06:39)

  I prided myself on and also talked to a lot of the women that I have been mentored by and that I have worked alongside. I started just calling people and being like, hey, I heard you had some assumptions. I heard you had some conclusions. I'm happy to answer any questions you have, right? I'm happy to, yeah, yeah. Because really what it is is that it takes the...

  Jill Griffin (06:54)

  Yeah, did you have questions? Yeah.

  I have started doing that as well.

  Molly Bierman (07:05)

  air out of it, it takes the, you know, awkwardness out of it. And I have no problem having tough conversations. So for me, it's like, great, do you want to have a conversation? And I'll never forget, I had an individual who went to someone else who definitely did not have a relationship with me to talk about what was next for my life. I'm like, so I called him and I said this was, you know, a few years ago now.

  I called him and he was a close work colleague. We had worked together for many years. And I called him and I said, hey, I heard you're calling this other person to ask them questions about what's next for me. This feels very confusing. And why would you think that was a good idea?

  Jill Griffin (07:41)

  Yeah, it's bizarre.

  Molly Bierman (07:47)

  Needless to say, we really haven't spoke since, but you know, because people get uncomfortable when they're called out in that way. And so what I'll say about the experience that I had this week was that it really was just a takeaway for me to say, okay.

  I don't love that, right? It's a good takeaway. I don't love when people gossip, so therefore, good information. I also should not be participating in the gossip behavior. And when I'm in a position of feeling confused about relationships and if someone has questions, the more information the better, become curious and really sit down with people if there's some sort of...

  confusion. And I also will say that as I have continued to grow and our business has continued to grow, there will be a sense of people feeling some sort of way about that because a lot of people in this space and in other spaces at large, just the human population, compare out and want to tear people down that are in their success or in their power. And so there's also going to be some of that and that's okay. But for the people that may have questions.

  saying publicly now, I'm here to answer any and all. Feel free to give me a call.

  Jill Griffin (08:57)

  Yeah,

  pick up the phone. So I think what sparked this for me, I don't know if you saw the controversy over Emma Greed and her comments recently. so for those of you that don't know Emma Grede, she is a massive entrepreneur. mean, she is the co-founder of American.

  Molly Bierman (09:06)

  The

  Massive.

  No, good American.

  Skims Yeah, all the Kardashian lines. Yeah,

  Jill Griffin (09:17)

  massive entrepreneur, OK? she said, I want to be really honest about this. I spend all my time working, and I'm a mom of four. I think that I'm a core memory mom, and I'm not going to walk it back. She talked about being a three-hour mom, where she, three hour a day.

  Molly Bierman (09:35)

  three hour a day.

  Jill Griffin (09:37)

  And the rest is kind of outsourced, whether it's to her husband, whether it's to help, all this stuff. And I will say that part of the irritation with some of the comments that I get is that it's done so flippantly that I don't think people, I don't think people intend to be offensive, okay? And I don't think people are trying to be sexist. And that's not even like...

  That's not even something that I really identify with, and I think I've talked about this on the podcast. wasn't until I got to a certain level and I've had certain interactions that I've been like, no one would say that to me if I was a man.

  Molly Bierman (10:10)

  Right, right, I agree. I'm of the same mindset as you, 100%.

  Jill Griffin (10:13)

  So

  the things that people will say though, they'll be like, are you sure you wanna take that on with like everything else? You must be so busy or how do you have time for this? I could never with my kids or I could never spend my time away from the kids or what?

  I think you're making an assumption that I'm neglecting my children at this point, which I for sure is not happening. I can tell you that. I actually had a recent conversation with somebody where I was explaining, I'm at the point where I need to hire some more help. And I explained what I was looking for to this person. Do you know what they said to me?

  Molly Bierman (10:49)

  I can't wait.

  Jill Griffin (10:49)

  I'm still laughing about this. They said, that sounds like a servant.

  you

  Molly Bierman (10:53)

  ma'am

  or sir excuse me

  Jill Griffin (10:56)

  I'm talking about getting some help with like getting the kids off the bus in the afternoon and some help in the afternoon.

  Molly Bierman (11:02)

  Like a babysitter?

  What?

  Jill Griffin (11:04)

  A servant. Okay. I was like, and let me tell you something.

  Molly Bierman (11:09)

  First of all,

  that word is not to be used, okay? And also, what?

  Jill Griffin (11:15)

  What?

  If people understood, let me just for context.

  I had my main, one of my main supports, my father, helps a lot with the kids after school. Well, he had surgery this week. My husband had to travel for work. I was supposed to travel for work. I had to bow out because of said surgery.

  Molly Bierman (11:23)

  Mm-hmm.

  Jill Griffin (11:34)

  When I tell you my day started with a 415 alarm every day sometimes I worked for three hours before the kids got up for school. Got them ready off to school and then we have sports every day. I didn't get home till nine o'clock most nights so from 415 a.m to 9 p.m it's me all day every day for everyone who needs me.

  And so then when I say, need to hire some help so I can, something's gotta give, I get a response about this, you're hiring a servant? You're not gonna make me feel bad for saying, excuse me, I need help, and I'm gonna pay somebody for it. That's crazy. And also, would somebody say that to a father?

  in the same position? No, because they assume that the wife is doing that stuff. I'm sorry, but that's the assumption.

  Molly Bierman (12:21)

  I agree.

  Like you're at a place where you're juggling quite a bit.

  Jill Griffin (12:22)

  Well,

  I was going to say that I probably waited too long to admit that we needed somebody to help in this way. so, I feel like I did. Because for me, the way that I frame it now is like, listen, I would rather stay at work for the extra couple of hours and close the laptop and come home, and now I'm at home.

  Molly Bierman (12:31)

  Well, that's the thing. That's the thing.

  Jill Griffin (12:46)

  and be present at home because now what's happening is like I'm juggling it all so that I'm trying to do it all at the same time and that doesn't work. Like I hate it when my son's like, mom, are you listening to me? Are you doing something on your phone? Well, you're talking to me and I'm mid email and so because I haven't finished my day because it's three o'clock in the afternoon and like that's not going to work long term. So I mean, I think I think we need to talk about though. Like why why does this matter? Because it's not

  Molly Bierman (13:06)

  No, no.

  Jill Griffin (13:12)

  The comments are the comments, and I think we have a solution to directly address these things. But for me, especially now that my daughter watches everything I do, and I am very conscious about how I talk about things and how things are framed to me. And I don't want my daughter growing up thinking that she can be ambitious and own her own business or do her own thing, but not too ambitious, because then you're going to be judged for not being enough as a mom. I don't think that's

  You can be both. You know, I just think that the language around that really matters. And honestly, what you're teaching your sons too. Am I going to teach my son that there's only one person that can have a successful career in a household? That's not fair either. But also, like the mental load of us having to even think about this stuff. I'm sorry, but like, I don't think that...

  My husband has that mental load. And I know we've talked about that on a separate episode in a different way, but I don't think he has the mental load of how you're being perceived, how you're defending yourself or explaining yourself or having these conversations.

  Molly Bierman (14:18)

  I'm sure there's things that they think about that we don't naturally. It's definitely different. But sometimes when I will share this with men, whether that's my husband or friends, male friends,

  Jill Griffin (14:21)

  Mm-hmm.

  Molly Bierman (14:29)

  they look at it and they're like, they're not totally grasping. I think it's because they haven't had the experience, right? So when you haven't had the experience, it's hard to identify and relate. But I'd be interested to know kind of what that looks like on the other side too. And again, this is not to create division, right? And I want to be really clear on that because I can hear, we can get pumped with a lot of content that creates division between, division between people in general. But

  What I would challenge you on is to invite the conversation, maybe go back to the person that had misinformation and say, hey, I just wanted to really clear up. The information you had was And

  What I know for me when I've been able to do that is that I feel clear, regardless whether or not that person ends up coming back to me or if we end up continuing a relationship or any of the variety of things that can happen out of that,

  And so if people are starting to chitter chatter or starting to judge or starting to say like, did you see that that person got a new job or, ⁓ weren't they just with this job or whatever it is.

  Invite them to the table. Grab a coffee. Buckle up. You know, I don't know. just feel like through all the tough conversations and inviting people to the table. What has happened is either I've gotten really clear one way or I've gotten really clear the other. And it's really given me, you know, a sense of confidence in how I can address people with curiosity.

  Jill Griffin (15:37)

  Yeah.

  that's a way for us

  to stop the gossip chain, right? Like, it kind of puts people in their place like, okay, this didn't serve me. Because if you say something to one person, it doesn't always get back to you, but it gets around. And so you also have to have those people in the field that are like going to speak up for you when you're not in the room, too. And I will say...

  through this learning process, I don't, you know, my husband has gotten to the point where like he's the first person to explain what I do and who I am and all of that stuff now. And he understands the importance of it, right? And again, yeah, this isn't about like bashing men. And I also haven't said this, but I will say it publicly that Alan Griffin has agreed to come on No Permission Necessary and be in the hot seat. So stay tuned for that.

  Molly Bierman (16:21)

  Same. Same.

  That's going to be a good episode.

  Jill Griffin (16:38)

  Stay tuned.

  Molly Bierman (16:39)

  Sam better jump on the bandwagon too.

  Jill Griffin (16:42)

  Well, we're gonna get out there,

  Molly Bierman (16:44)

  We shall see.

  Jill Griffin (16:46)

  So I would love anybody, if you're listening, like what is the wildest thing that someone said to you that they would never say to a man or a woman? If you're a man listening to this, we wanna know, like what are the things that are said to you that they would never say to us?

  Molly Bierman (16:57)

  Yes. Yes. Definitely to a woman. Right.

  Jill Griffin (17:02)

  DM us on Instagram at no permission necessary. We're on YouTube and also we are starting a new mailing list. We're really excited about this. So please look in the show notes and subscribe so you can get our content every week right in your inbox.

  Molly Bierman (17:16)

  Until next time on No Permission Necessary. Bye.