The Parts of Recovery No One Talks About

Feb 3

Episode 32 with Jill Griffin and Molly Bierman

In this episode of No Permission Necessary, Molly Bierman and Jill Griffin explore the realities of long-term recovery beyond moments of crisis. They discuss how recovery evolves over time, why relapse is a process rather than a single event, and what families and professionals often misunderstand about healing.

Through honest reflection and lived experience, this conversation examines decision-making, emotional regulation, accountability, and the role of community in sustaining recovery across different seasons of life.

Molly Bierman (00:00)
I did get a pair of pants though in my rental today. No, but I think I'm...
Jill Griffin (00:02)
Did you buy them?
Yeah. I bought a couple items.
Molly Bierman (00:06)
I haven't bought anything yet. This is only my second
time. Guys, we're talking about clothes right now, and we want you to know that it's pretty freaking awesome. Have you seen the bag rentals too?
Jill Griffin (00:14)
It's, it is. You get to try new things.
No, but I am about to put in a rental for my tropical vacation soon because that's another way that it's really nice. When you go on vacation, you're like, often, am I going to really wear this thing again? No, let me just rent a couple of nice dresses.
That's right.
Molly Bierman (00:43)
Okay, so we're doing a little mini episode today. Welcome to No Permission Necessary. We're back.
Jill Griffin (00:49)
Love to see it.
Molly Bierman (00:50)
And I think what would be really fun is if we did.
I know, I feel like kind of breaking down what came to be honestly for just like a mini episode. Let's just do some like rapid fire questions about recovery and kind of breaking down some of the stigma of what people think recovery is or isn't.
Jill Griffin (01:11)
Wow, I love that for us. Let's do it.
Molly Bierman (01:14)
Okay, good.
All right.
Jill Griffin (01:15)
Just so everyone knows, I came into this completely unprepared for what we were about to talk about. So I'm glad that Molly was prepared with something. That's what Teamwork's really about.
Molly Bierman (01:24)
Listen,
teamwork makes the dream work, you know? All right, so I don't know. feel like, you the reason why I was kind of like a little bit inspired to do this is because recovery looks different for people as they grow and as they evolve, right? So when you think about, and this is really what sparked it, when you think about families and how they coexist with their loved ones who are in recovery, it changes. It has seasons, right? So.
the way they may be showing up just without substances or just without alcohol maybe one way. But then as they start to regain some level of connection, community, they may be showing up in a different way. When they go through a grief pattern and they go through a struggle, they may show up in a different way. And so I think that it's good for us to navigate that, educate people on that and also educate families, know, and professionals because I think a lot of folks that we work with don't necessarily know
Jill Griffin (02:00)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Molly Bierman (02:17)
or don't always see the long-term patterns. A lot of people work in the crisis. There's not as many people that work in the longer-term recovery realm. Does that make sense? I just feel like that's kind of a theme that's been coming up.
Jill Griffin (02:29)
Well...
I feel like treatments always geared towards the person who's in that crisis, right? So we don't talk as much about somebody who regains the job, who has the family, who's been sober for 15, 20 years. that's not as, I don't know, it's not as discussed, but I will say that things come out in layers for sure in recovery. You know what's interesting that you bring this up is that
Molly Bierman (02:37)
Mm-hmm.
Jill Griffin (02:58)
I have this, I have this like packet of stuff from when I first got sober and this week, did I text you about this? I don't think I did. So I find the records. It was, I find the, my, my paperwork from the first mental health treatment provider that I went to when I was first sober. Okay. The intake.
Molly Bierman (03:06)
No. You texted me about the sippy cup, which was really sad, honestly.
So good. You should have brought that to the podcast.
Jill Griffin (03:26)
the diagnosis. ⁓
I have it right here too, but I'd have to sift through some things to get it, but whoa, okay. ⁓ Well, that person was unwell, okay? That person was not doing well in life. ⁓ Definitely was mandated to treatment at that point. Yeah, and I...
Molly Bierman (03:35)
Can we talk about a little delusion?
That is so good.
Okay, so well,
this is good because we're gonna start off with a question that really correlates with that. What was...
Jill Griffin (03:57)
You know, part of me
would love, wait, part of me would love to find that therapist and be like, ma'am, I just want you to know I'm now a licensed professional doing the same thing you used to do because I can guarantee that you didn't think I was going to make it anywhere in life. She was like, this one's going back. There's no doubt about it. She one thousand. You can even tell from the notes. You could tell from the notes. She had no faith that I was going to be staying sober at all. High risk of relapse was all over that paperwork.
Molly Bierman (04:13)
Listen, I'm here.
think it's really nice.
I think it's really nice to go back to providers and people that have seen you evolve. mean, I honestly, there is one woman who facilitated my first intervention when I was 17. And she was, you know, she was a therapist who got all the young kids who were making problems, okay? And she intervened on many of us. And she still like comments on my anniversaries and things like that.
You know, just think it's, you know, again, kind of going back to what I said originally is professionals who maybe don't see the long-term effects of what recovery is and why it's really easy to get burnt out working in our space if you're not tapping into those long -gevity stories, moments.
Jill Griffin (05:06)
Yeah, it's hard, but
it's hard. mean, I worked in crisis, right? And so you see the same people cycling in and out and you only see the crisis and the same for the addiction field. And it's just like, that does contribute to burnout. All right, so let's start with some of these rapid fire questions. What do you got?
Molly Bierman (05:12)
over and over.
in a big way.
I'm so excited. Okay, well, in essence of your paperwork that you were able to find and locate, one word to describe your active addiction.
Jill Griffin (05:30)
destructive.
Molly Bierman (05:31)
Destructive, okay, that's good. I would say one word to describe, I should probably share these questions with you, because that would help you. ⁓ One word to, yeah, but are you gonna ask me questions or am gonna ask myself the questions? One word to describe ⁓ my active addiction would just be.
Jill Griffin (05:34)
Full stop.
I like being surprised. I don't want to look at it.
Molly Bierman (05:54)
God, I feel like it's been a minute.
You know, I would say loneliness. And because the reason why I picked that word is because the reason I was doing everything was because it's like inherent loneliness really from self and from others and inability to be authentic with anybody or tell anybody the truth. I don't know. So I feel like that the, you know.
Jill Griffin (06:14)
mean, we both shared, if you're new here to listening to us or watching us, please go back to our original, our stories, because I think we did get a little bit more vulnerable. But for people who don't know Molly and I in that context, because I think not many saw us in active addiction and then are still like in our circles now for a variety of reasons. We were hot messes. We were not like, ⁓
Molly Bierman (06:18)
Yeah.
Jill Griffin (06:39)
she drinks a couple extras, okay? That dances on the bar, okay? That would be a fun night. We were not fun at the end of the night. I just wanna be clear, because sometimes normal people, I say that like people who are not in the field, people who, and they hear some of our stories, which, know, a joke in the behavioral health field or in addiction circles, it's like, we laugh at things that normal people don't laugh at. And I'm reminded of that when I tell a story around normal people.
Molly Bierman (06:48)
No.
Jill Griffin (07:08)
And they're like, ⁓ you were unhinged.
Molly Bierman (07:11)
Okay, let's do it. I have the best question for you.
Okay, what does relapse actually look like for you?
Jill Griffin (07:19)
Like what would it look like now or?
⁓ I tell my husband this all the time. I made at this point in my recovery, okay, if I made the decision to actively use drugs and alcohol again, which let me be very clear is a series of decisions that are made before you actually pick up that substance, right? That's something we talk about with our clients all the time. But once I made that decision, I would have a burner phone.
I would have emptied our bank accounts. You will not find me. I'm out.
Molly Bierman (07:52)
I don't even
think people today know what a burner phone is.
Jill Griffin (07:55)
I'm out. People will be trying to find me on the streets of some city, somewhere in the United States. And I will be out and you will not hear from me because I will, I will run. I'm a runner. You will not hear from me. And, and the thing that people don't, the thing, the thing that people don't understand though, and you know, thankfully I got sober before I had children.
Molly Bierman (08:10)
Yeah, same. Same. I don't know if we would have even a phone. Phone might not be.
Jill Griffin (08:21)
But when I was an active addiction, I used with people who were pregnant, I've used with people with children. And I think that's one of the more painful things of recovery, right? If you've abandoned your children for a drug or alcohol, but the reality is, is that addiction is more powerful than any human relationship that you have. ⁓ Which is why higher power is really big in recovery communities because as much love as you have for your child, it will not be enough to get you so.
Molly Bierman (08:52)
We need to do a whole, we're gonna do an episode on parenthood and recovery, which we have done a part one to that with Sarah Benton. So if you haven't listened to that episode, run it back. What is doing, I'll answer this one. What does doing the work mean to me? I think doing the work means.
Specifically for me, ⁓ being in community, having accountability, being transparent, being honest, even when it hurts.
clear as kind, clear in my words, clear in my actions, staying away from toxic people. I wouldn't say for me and my recovery now it's about staying away from people who drink or... I definitely am not hanging out with people that are fully addicted to substances and that's what they do with their time day in and day out. But I wouldn't say I am avoiding places where there may be alcohol. mean...
I think for me, I'm in a place now where that doesn't necessarily bother me. ⁓ But I'm also cognizant of all the other things that I'm doing in my daily life to ensure that that doesn't creep back Speaking with trusted advisors, know, people in my community and in my world that have seen me struggle, that have seen, you know, who had seen the relapses years ago, who had...
Jill Griffin (09:43)
Absolutely not.
Molly Bierman (10:09)
watched the story, been a part of the journey, ⁓ and also prioritizing, you know, others before myself, honestly. And I say that in a way that I still do things that I need to do for me, but how do I continue to be of service? And is that of service in my position at work? Is that of service in my community? Is that of service with my kids? putting someone else before myself. ⁓
to make a difference, you know? Because a lot of people did it for me.
and consistently did it for me, even when it was hard. So that's what doing the work means to me. What's one non-negotiable in your recovery?
Jill Griffin (10:47)
Sleep, can I say that? I was gonna say running things by people, but honestly, I feel like sometimes.
I feel like at this point in my sobriety, I have enough of a connection with my higher power and also my own gut feelings that I was so disconnected from in active addiction. You know that feeling you have, like, ooh, you shouldn't do this? I overrode that so often that my intuition was non-existent when I got, so I couldn't trust anything because I just like.
Molly Bierman (11:11)
so many times.
Jill Griffin (11:20)
I didn't know what that gut feeling was telling me anymore. So like early in sobriety, I had to run everything. I mean, everything by people in recovery. And now I feel like I certainly still have to talk to people. I'm not downplaying I do think though that sometimes it gets more confusing that I know what the right thing to do is now. My gut tells me.
Molly Bierman (11:24)
It's...
It's so interesting
you say that because I think there's this, well I know that there's this theme when we get into recovery that you don't know how to make a decision. I mean it is truly incredible. Like you feel so convicted when you're using. Like you know the way to get out of it or to stay in it, right? Like...
Jill Griffin (12:02)
It's called being delusional.
Molly Bierman (12:04)
but then you get into recovery and you're sober for five minutes and you walk into the grocery store and somebody tells you to pick out a bottle of body wash, it's not happening. It's just simply not happening. Like I have no ability in the beginning of, you know, in the beginning of my recovery, I had no ability to make a decision.
Jill Griffin (12:13)
Yeah.
But I think that's why, and it took me a long time to make that.
Molly Bierman (12:23)
What type
of coffee you want to order. mean, crazy stuff. Like, things that, like, you have no barometer on what you like or what you don't like. That's my experience.
Jill Griffin (12:27)
Yeah.
Because
you're used to being the chameleon for so long that you don't know who you are. You don't know what you like because I like drugs and alcohol. That's what I love. I mean, that was it. That was pretty much at the end. That was all I liked.
Molly Bierman (12:39)
Zero idea.
Yeah, and then everyone thinks when you get sober it's a good idea to get to a relationship. Wait 10 years.
Jill Griffin (12:51)
I'm pretty
sure they tell you not to do that.
Molly Bierman (12:53)
people do it. And it's baffling to me now looking back on it, because I'm like, I literally couldn't pick out a bottle of body wash. But yet I was eager to.
Hook up.
Jill Griffin (13:03)
I mean, my husband and I's ⁓ love story is one of early recovery decisions, okay? So here we are, you know? So let's just, sometimes it works out.
Molly Bierman (13:04)
Hook up, link up, suck you dry.
And you're still here, still here to talk about it.
Yeah, there's some people that it's worked out for. What was the...
Was there anything that happened in your recovery that almost took you out?
Jill Griffin (13:25)
No.
Molly Bierman (13:26)
Wow. Really?
Jill Griffin (13:27)
I will tell
you that I, I tell people this a lot. When I went into treatment, I went into detox as my last stop. didn't go to any residential or anything, but I had a friend who brought me there and knew another person in the detox at the time. Actually, he brought me McDonald's while we waited to get in. And the only piece of advice he told me, he was like, pray for the obsession to use alcohol and drugs to be removed. And I was so desperate. I was like, I'll do that.
Molly Bierman (13:53)
Mm-hmm.
Jill Griffin (13:55)
I don't even know what that meant, right? But I've never wanted to use again. That's just my experience, which would probably sound crazy to a lot of people, but I, you know, my relationship with a higher power started there and I didn't even know that it started there, but I was just so desperate to not be miserable anymore. ⁓ But yeah, I've never had a white knuckling experience.
Molly Bierman (13:59)
That's so... yeah.
Jill Griffin (14:20)
I just feel like that was it, I surrendered. I wasn't going back.
I'm not saying that it was easy. I was a hot mess for a good two years, a good two years. It ⁓ was a roller coaster, ⁓ but I never wanted to use.
Molly Bierman (14:26)
No, nobody's saying that. Yeah.
Yeah.
That's amazing.
Jill Griffin (14:34)
Yeah. How about you?
Molly Bierman (14:36)
I had the obsession come back at like five years sober, four years sober. And I vividly remember what happened. I was driving from Connecticut to Massachusetts where I was living. And I was really going through it because I was honestly making decisions that were rooted in self rather than taking direction from other people who had been sober a long time, you know?
I was a byproduct of my actions for sure. It wasn't that it just came out of the blue. And I think that's really important to mention because if you start to see signs and symptoms, signals and warnings with your clients, with your loved ones, not to say it's your responsibility to clean up, but it may be your responsibility to just gently nudge or point out that there may be something that looks a little bit different than it has, right?
Jill Griffin (15:22)
Well, that's why I said to your question before about a relapse, like nobody just goes out and uses. I mean, this is the longer you're in recovery, the longer the path towards that picking up is like it's, you know.
Molly Bierman (15:28)
Nah.
Yeah. And
there was a lot of, you know, so I was making decisions that were a bit reckless. I was not putting myself first. I wasn't taking my program seriously. I was probably spreading myself thin by helping others, but not really paying attention to the things that I needed to work on within myself. Right. So a whole litany of issues and I'm driving back and I was by myself and I just had this overwhelming feeling. I was like really emotional. I felt like I wanted to drink again.
And drinking wasn't my thing, but it felt like the safest thing, you know, like I could probably justify that. I couldn't justify, you know, going out and doing hard drugs. And I... It was bizarre. Like, you you talk about like being of service and how people show up for you in a way that you can't explain and that the universe has its own powers to kind of work in this beautiful way that can't be explained.
And I got a call from a girl that I used to sponsor and she was drunk. ⁓ I said to her, I was like, I feel like drinking, you know? It was really, really, really, really.
Jill Griffin (16:38)
this is a perfect opportunity to get a cosign by another person who's also drunk.
Molly Bierman (16:41)
But she didn't, she
didn't. And she said she was like, and she was crying and she was like, I'm in so much pain, you don't ever wanna feel what I'm feeling right now. It was like a really like, I was able to help her and by way she was helping me. Oddly enough, she actually called me not that long ago. So there's these people that weave in and out of your life and they're able to show up in ways that can't really be orchestrated.
you know, by human power, at least my experience, you know? So that was when it came back and it just as quickly as it came back was kind of as quickly as it lifted, honestly. And I set off on a different trajectory of things that I needed to do to take care of myself.
Jill Griffin (17:07)
Mm-hmm.
And aren't we glad it did.
Molly Bierman (17:22)
Thank God, you know.
What surprised you most about getting sober?
Jill Griffin (17:25)
much it sucked in the beat. I mean it was hard and it was painful and
I honestly thought that getting sober was gonna solve so many problems. And I think that I was very delusional about how much wreckage I made when I was out there. Because when I got sober, there was a lot to clean up. Financial, legal, relational. I mean, it was just...
Which honestly surprises me looking back, but I didn't feel like drinking more, I guess, in my early sobriety. I mean, there was just a lot of stuff. So I thought that I was gonna feel better and feel like so good about myself that I made this decision. And that was not the case. It didn't start feeling better until I was like 18 months, two years sober.
Molly Bierman (18:09)
the last question I had for both of us was one sentence that you'd say to your past self. And I think for me, it would be, it's going to be hard, you know, like I tell clients, I tell families, it's not easy. If it were easy to get and stay sober, everyone would be doing it, you know?
Jill Griffin (18:30)
I
guess mine would be though that it's going to be better than you can ever imagine. Because when people used to say, I'm, when people used to say, beyond your wildest dreams, beyond your wildest dreams, I would be like, like, come on, dude. Can we just get to like not a felon and not a warrant for my arrest and like, I don't know that I could buy my own pack of Newports.
Molly Bierman (18:42)
Don't quit before the miracle happens, yeah.
Jill Griffin (18:57)
That's what I was going for. was like really, the bar was set really low for how sobriety was gonna improve my life.
Molly Bierman (19:03)
So good.
Jill Griffin (19:03)
But
the reality is, I don't like being on my wildest dreams now, so now I'm the person that says it's everybody else.
Molly Bierman (19:09)
Yep, yep. Well, thank you guys for tuning in for a short rapid fire question and answer. We love to see you guys. Please write in if you have any topics, any guests, any people you want to see on our episode and continue to listen in every Tuesday and shameless plug, please subscribe and like our YouTube channel.
Jill Griffin (19:27)
Peace.