When Work Takes More Than It Gives

Feb 10

Episode 33 with Samantha Osterlof

In this guest episode of No Permission Necessary, Molly Bierman and Jill Griffin sit down with Samantha Osterlof to examine work boundaries, professional identity, and the emotional cost of staying in roles that demand more than they give.

Samantha brings a full-spectrum perspective shaped by over a decade in behavioral healthcare, with experience spanning direct care, family programming, aftercare coordination, business development, and education. As a Certified Advanced Alcohol and Drug Counselor (CAADC) and founder of ETHOS Treatment, her insight reflects both clinical depth and lived experience within service-driven systems.

This conversation explores how blurred boundaries and emotional labor can quietly erode well-being, why loyalty can become unsustainable, and what it takes to redefine success without abandoning purpose. It’s an honest look at creating healthier relationships with work, especially for women navigating leadership and caregiving roles.

Learn more about Samantha Osterlof:
Website: https://www.ethostreatment.com
Instagram: @ethostreatment
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samantha-osterlof-3130b596/

Molly Bierman (00:00)
Alright guys, let's get into it. I am so excited for you to be here. I call you Sammy. I don't know if the general population calls you Sammy or Samantha these days, we've known each other for a long time and more specifically really got connected when we opened up the inpatient unit in Pennsylvania and you were out there. God, I even remember who you were working for then.
Samantha Osterlof (00:02)
Mm-hmm.
Thanks, Pat.
It's probably Retreat, because that's when I met you guys, it was from Mark.
Molly Bierman (00:23)
Pray.
Yeah, I guess that's right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, and through that, you know, we both got pregnant. You had an unexpected third baby and we connected on so many levels through leadership, through talking about authenticity in the space. You're a huge advocate. You have really
Samantha Osterlof (00:30)
What?
You
I sure did.
Molly Bierman (00:51)
You really shaped a lot of the individuals that I came across when I worked on the Impatient Unit in PA. And so I'm so excited to be able to talk to you about all the things, motherhood, leadership, confidence, your experience. And so just really grateful that you said yes to being on the show today.
Samantha Osterlof (01:07)
Of course, thanks for having me.
Molly Bierman (01:08)
So you've worked across almost every layer of behavioral healthcare from tech to leadership. Takes one to know one. Feel like we connected in that way where, you know, kind of started from the bottom and worked, you know, worked up to where we are in executive leadership. When you look back, what version of yourself do you feel like was most focused on proving she belonged? If you really kind of look at the layers of your career.
Samantha Osterlof (01:33)
Man, the layers are deep.
Well, now, mean, in the beginning when your entry level in treatment and for me, my experience was I was just so excited to work there, just to work in treatment and to work like at the treatment center that I went to. So I think for a while there were like these blinders on for me where I just automatically, I don't know if it was ignorance and bliss, but I just thought long that it was fine. I didn't really feel the need. I didn't realize and this isn't to
Molly Bierman (01:45)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Samantha Osterlof (02:03)
be negative towards men. However, it took me a couple years and then getting into a leadership position, like a middle management leadership position, when I started to realize that a majority of the people in the room, in the leadership room, were men. And that's when, you know, one of the first women that I really had looked up to,
Molly Bierman (02:17)
Mm.
Samantha Osterlof (02:23)
Now hindsight, it was a persona, but I really, really looked up to her because the first time I ever met this woman, there was one woman on executive leadership at the facility I worked at, for.
a little over six years, right? And she was already built in to the leadership, so we were already used to her. And no one at the time had yet come on to the executive leadership that was from the outside. So she came on and I remember being in this one, team lead type of meeting, and she came in and they introduced her and the way she walked in the room,
really blew my mind. Like it wasn't what she said, it was how she walked in and how she carried herself. And I remember going to her office after and she probably thought I was a weirdo because I was like, teach me how to grow. You're so, you know, I look up to you, show me, you know what I mean? And I said how to and she was like, well, with what?
like type of questions you have. And I said, well, when you, how did you walk in that room and just command attention, regardless of how many men were in that room? And she was like, well, you see, that's where you're thinking of it wrong. She's like, I don't walk in the room thinking that they know anything more or less than I do. And I just walk in there, like I know the answers. And I was like, whoa.
my God, I thought there's going to be some long explanation. It really was the first time where I was like, okay, now I have to prove myself. it isn't really always necessarily with women because there is a large amount of men that are in higher spots in behavioral health. So it was kind of like the awareness, the layers coming off and being like, shoot, like
wait, I don't belong. And then having to figure out and work my way kind of through that over the course of a couple years. then, you know, leaving that place, having been in leadership and going somewhere and then not being in leadership. And then kind of getting a crash course and humility from the next treatment center, because they were like, you know, the first one I was, I walked up the hill and like,
people knew who I was and if I said something, like, I really wasn't questioned, like, I had built that trust and respect there to belong. And then when I left the comfort of that ground, I had to continue doing that at the next couple places that I went. I won't say couple, because I it didn't go to many, but, you know, I. Yeah.
Molly Bierman (04:25)
Right?
I think that's so interesting because
that was a lot of what my experience was too. I mean, I predominantly worked around men and there was no women in leadership at the first facility that I was at except I think me. I mean, if I'm really like, I was kind of going through my mind, some of the people in leadership, there were definitely other women there that were in, know, therapeutic roles, but outside of that and leadership there really weren't.
Molly Bierman (05:03)
And so when I took the transition from being in that space to then going and working at my husband's company, which was a shift in and of itself in so many different ways.
But I remember walking in and there were other women in leadership and how did I connect with them? How did I lean in? How did I lean out? Because there was a there was honestly a more
Samantha Osterlof (05:22)
Mm-hmm.
Molly Bierman (05:28)
familiarity being around men and having to get my voice heard around men. I think there's like this subtle and maybe not so subtle discomfort when you're trying to create relationships with women in leadership. I luckily had a mentor which really helped me but I don't know if Jill or you Sammy have experience where it almost felt a bit more comfortable getting loud around men than it did.
with other women. At least my experience, I don't know.
Samantha Osterlof (05:56)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, well, and also to like, you know, like, when I was younger, I had a core group of like four girls. And then as we got older and kind of separated, and I was in a long, long term relationship at the time. So I was always with all the guys. So I was all girl that was could be the person that hung out with the girls, but also like, hang out with, you know, the guys. So I kind of like took from pieces of that to help, like build confidence.
Molly Bierman (06:12)
Right.
Yeah, yeah.
Samantha Osterlof (06:25)
So, but yeah, that's absolutely right because us as as gals for some reason get in a room and we'd much rather be afraid of each other than be vulnerable with each other, which, you know, over the years.
creates that weird thing with other women in leadership. But really cool things happen kind of when you stop, you have the uncomfortable conversation of like, hey, we're in this space together, right? And we're both gals. And we really need to come together because the other people on this team, right, that might not be women, we need to be able to push each other, to confide in each other. And at that same place, when I
you know, had the experience and started doing that there. We really were able to come together and help each other grow, especially in leadership because there's a certain way that you have to present yourself, you know? And I remember reading this book, and it's called, Girls Don't Get the Corner Office. And if you've never read it, right, it's not about being a mean girl at work.
but it's about things that we do naturally as women that just come natural to us that automatically put us at a disadvantage to men. Yeah, so an example of that that I use is that,
Molly Bierman (07:36)
Interesting.
Samantha Osterlof (07:41)
you know, I like to have a little cookie jar, right? Or a little candy jar in my office. Well, then people walk in and men will may automatically see me as being like the caregiver role. I fall right into it. She's going to bring in food from the night before. She's going to feed us, you know, these things that we do that I didn't think anything of. I thought it was being kind or then, you know, used as kind of a weird miss.
guided direction into the difference between, you know, there should be no difference between us and leadership. If we're all at the same table, or girl, both ways doesn't matter, you know. ⁓
Jill Griffin (08:17)
Well, yes, and
I also think that we're at an advantage just how as women, though. And if you look at some of the statistics, I've listened to some podcasts over the years, and actually, women-led businesses tend to be more profitable when there's C-suite level executive leadership that are women. And part of that is...
Samantha Osterlof (08:37)
Thank
Jill Griffin (08:42)
our ability to be relational with people versus the outcome driven because a lot of times male leadership discounts the relational like process that needs to happen when you're leading people. And when you look at from a behavioral health aspect, that matters even more because we're dealing with people. I think of like motivational interviewing. I'm sure we're all trained, all three of us are trained in that, right?
Samantha Osterlof (09:04)
yeah.
Jill Griffin (09:05)
I think I've used that more with staff than I have with clients at this point in my career, because I cannot motivate staff to get what I want out of them unless they understand their own motivations to get what they need to get done, right? And so I think there is an investment in that. And again, this is obviously stereotyping male versus female leadership, but I think there is some value in those differences too.
Samantha Osterlof (09:27)
See?
Jill Griffin (09:30)
And just backtracking, I was thinking about it when you both were talking and like, I don't think I really gave it much thought because I had a mother who was in leadership growing up. like, I saw her step into rooms, command attention, you know, do speeches in front of all these people. So like, I never thought about that, but yesterday my business partner, ⁓ male, says to me, you know what's funny? He goes, I'm not triggered by you at all at work. Nothing you do triggers me. He goes, do I trigger you? And I'm like,
Yes, in fact, there have been some triggers for sure, right? And so when, but it's my stuff. And what it is is previous male authority figures in this space who have minimized my competence in certain areas. And so that doesn't mean that my business partner does that, but there are some times when we have to have difficult conversations where that trigger comes up of
Molly Bierman (10:15)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Jill Griffin (10:25)
spaces I've been in where males have kind of made me feel like I don't know what I'm talking about. And I have had that happen more, mansplaining, right? Like I've had that happen more with men than women in this space. I do think it's also equally important for us to have those women like you had Samantha to say,
Molly Bierman (10:31)
Right?
Jill Griffin (10:44)
this is what you have to do to get to this next level. Like that mentorship sometimes happens in those moments, right? You'll probably never forget that conversation with that woman.
Samantha Osterlof (10:52)
Mm-mm.
Molly Bierman (10:53)
When you describe your confidence, Sammy, and I find you to be extremely confident in your role, I feel as though extremely competent. You love to learn. You love to educate yourself. You like to be a voice of reason and knowledge. When you think about, describing your confidence, when did you realize that you
started trusting yourself more in those rooms. Like was there a pivotal moment where you could acknowledge that, ⁓ I felt a shift that I was able to command the room
Samantha Osterlof (11:23)
of
Sure. after many years, made the difficult decision to move on. And I don't think that I really had the confidence until I was out of that space and looked at, because when you're in that space and you're kind of at times boxed in as like the success story, you might feel that people might
have a false sense of respect for you or you might have a false sense of confidence.
for me, when I would go, one place to the next, it was easier to
to build my confidence ⁓ because I have that relational aspect. So stopping at the facility, being on site, saying, hey, how can I help? All those things I had learned throughout the years. And then that all sounds good and great. And here I am learning and growing. And I ended up going to work for that woman who
walked into the rooms the first time I saw a female really gauge. Now I hadn't spoken to her in many years, but the experience I had with her years prior is what I was going off of. And I left the place where I had, you know, again, finally like build all this confidence up, trusted this individual, went to work for her and very quickly realized, not very quickly, but probably about a month into it that it.
wasn't the best decision to make. And I was there another probably eight months. And after that situation, my confidence just as a person working in this field had been shattered, completely shattered. And you know,
However, I'm grateful for it because it led me to, you know, where I am today and the place I work today, which I'm one of two women on the leadership team. And, you know, I do feel a lot of support, you know, by the men in the room. And it's been.
really beautiful for me to look back on the last almost three years of being at the company I'm currently at and how much they really had to like hold me with like kitty gloves because my confidence had been so depleted.
Jill Griffin (13:26)
think that's an uncommon experience though. mean, I know,
Molly Bierman (13:29)
Mm-hmm.
Jill Griffin (13:29)
we talked about recently,
on a podcast about like our own patterns and we kind of talk with other business owners about like our own your own stuff comes up when you're in leadership. Whether you're an entrepreneur running your own business or if you're in leadership your own stuff comes up and I think there is a healing process that has to happen or else that stuff keeps coming up. Is there something that you can recognize as like this is the thing that I had to look at like
I guess for me, what I just mentioned, is like I had to look at when I feel incompetent, there's a reaction that I have
I feel like I then have to over explain and I go into this like overcompensating, you know? So I wonder if there's something that you've identified through this process of like, that's where I needed to shift and I needed this experience to highlight that for me. Cause sometimes we have these blind spots that without a bad experience, it's not gonna come up to the surface.
Molly Bierman (14:05)
Ahem.
Samantha Osterlof (14:08)
Mm-hmm.
yes. So for me,
I always try to look at my part, right? like in a situation where someone's upset or they've done something that upsets me, I immediately want to know what my part was and I overanalyze it, right? Even though like you're the one that upset me. And so looking at like, what's my part, right? Over the years, it's been for me having a,
Molly Bierman (14:39)
So true.
Samantha Osterlof (14:45)
a really warped view on the difference between my work life and my family life. And I'll give an example
Like there were nights that I stayed late at work when my daughter was young, she's 14 now, but there were nights where I stayed late or went in early or, and I didn't need to say yes to that, right? But I did.
So I had this very warped view that like the people at my job, because that's what I'd grown up with, right, in the field, is the people at my job are my family. And they care as much about me and my wellbeing and what's the best for me as I would for any friend. And the sad part of that is that that's not true of everybody, right? And until I had that...
experience to realize that like this person had no problem plucking me from a job where I was doing really well. And then have this idea of it, it, it didn't hurt her feelings, right? When it's two weeks before Christmas, you tell me I'm terrible at my job and you cut my salary by 40%.
And you don't even give me a heads up bi-weekly when that's gonna happen. So having that situation and then quite a few situations after and really coming to realize that I've, over the years, have just overly thought the best of people. And it's been a sad reality to accept that.
But that's my part, like I get too attached or I don't set the good enough boundary or stuff like that. ⁓ Or I've had situations over the years where I probably, my daughter shouldn't have stayed at the daycare an extra hour two, right? Like someone else probably could have done the job at the facility for me to pick her up on time. And so that's the thing I think about now
Jill Griffin (16:36)
What are some
boundaries that you really enforce now in your life now? Because that work-life balance that you just described is so rampant in our field. I think we spend so much time at work that there's this over, you know, people really identify with like, these are my people. And it's unfortunate, but until you move on to someplace else, you don't realize, they're really not my people. Those aren't like out of sight, out of mind.
Samantha Osterlof (16:45)
Mm-hmm.
Have they called you?
Have they called? Have they reached out? you know? And that's kind of, you know, I'm not perfect at it at all. I'm like, setting the boundaries are still really painful to me.
Jill Griffin (17:03)
Yeah.
Molly Bierman (17:03)
Right.
Samantha Osterlof (17:11)
but, anything that's going on in my family is always before my job.
The ones that I'm working harder on that I still continue to need to work on is, you know, stepping back and maybe not ⁓ being as personable or having any an expectation that other people at work are going to view people the same way that I do, right? Like I might view us as being, you know, family, right? But the rest of the people there might not.
So, you know, really getting a grasp on too, like if I text someone after five o'clock and they don't respond, like it's not a bad thing. But those are kind of the boundaries, like I really try to keep. ⁓
Molly Bierman (17:50)
How has
that, how do you feel like, Sammy, I I know you on a, you know, both personal and professional level and knowing where you were brought up and how that dynamic of family existed in the agency that you got sober in, that you developed your career in. Jill and I talk frequently about
some of the facilities that exist that kind of grow in numbers by their alumni base, right? So they start by, you know, getting sober there, seeking recovery there, maybe having a loved one go there. And then they start to really kind of immerse themselves in the environment. The environment then becomes their family because there's people that have been estranged from their families or have had consequences because of their usage. And then it becomes this, I'm indebted.
to now the center, you know, in a way, both personally and professionally.
As that system kind of progresses, what I was hearing from your talk about boundaries and what that has had to reshape in your current organization, a lot of those threads exist from that time, right? Like that need for giving back, right? And what I share a lot with both staff and clients and families alike is that
Samantha Osterlof (18:56)
Mm-hmm.
Molly Bierman (19:05)
You know, being of service is an unpaid position, which you do outside of your work environment. And your work environment is a paid position, therefore it cannot be confused as service. Because service, you don't get paid for it, right? So that's like kind of at base. And that's what I would really help the staff that worked on the Impetion Unit understand. You can still have passion and purpose to be connected to the field, but that doesn't mean that that replaces service.
Samantha Osterlof (19:11)
Mm-hmm.
Molly Bierman (19:30)
So all that to say there was extreme tragedy in the center that you worked in two of the most profound leaders that impacted you from my understanding, both died essentially of a mental health crisis and took their own lives by suicide. And so when you think about like what it was like for you to sometimes break some of those threads,
Samantha Osterlof (19:34)
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Molly Bierman (19:53)
to reshape how you show up in your career, reshape how you show up in your family, but also simultaneously be able to grieve what was such a huge chapter. What has that been like for you? And how have you been able to show up even maybe when it's been really hard?
Samantha Osterlof (20:07)
Mm-hmm. Well, it took me probably about the first year after this, after it happened, until I realized that the responses I was having felt like I was having like childhood trauma flashbacks,
You know, this was my, that was my first experience of like having a group of people really, ⁓ like raise me, and raise me on What I believed was to be, good ethics, good clinical care and knowing when to share your personal story versus to be professional.
And I think back and I'm like, I'm grateful for the experience because
They really taught me like how to sit in a room and be on leadership, how to sit and like, you know, keep your emotions kind of settled, especially if you're a woman, don't cry in the room. Like they taught, I got to be on so many cool things where I certainly didn't have the credentials for them at the time, but there is this, you're right, unspoken.
type of, I don't want to label it as grooming, because I feel like grooming has a really negative connotation about it, but almost like it's very cultish. It was a very cultish vibe that we loved. And we had that tragedy happened. And what was really devastating for me is I live
in the town where the facility is, And the hardest part has been really realizing that until the time that they took their lives, I had never really, I just had a.
⁓ a blanket trust for them. never read any, I never Googled their name. I never did anything. None of us did because like I want, even when I got the job met now, right? And I'm so happy and so proud and I like have the best job and the best supervisor. And I just love it, but I would never post about that or any social media outlets. Cause I always thought I would hurt their feelings. So it was very weird when they didn't.
they were no longer present here on earth because all the ideals I'd shaped of ethics and good treatment and all that stuff was wrapped up in them. And then to find out that like it wasn't what it was and that, you know, there weren't, there was potentially some unethical stuff going on to read all of the court documents and to know that they knew things weren't going well and
and that their decision was to take their life, that's their choice, but that was painful. Because if you would have told me a couple years ago that like the property where I was reborn would no longer exist, and that those two people won't be in my life anymore, because of that, I would have, it's like a lifetime movie, you know? ⁓
The first death happened and I reached out to the executive director and me and my husband went on site and I was helping discharge clients and get them like packed up and help them like help the aftercare team, like just put clients on the phone. And the family members did not believe the clients. They were like, what do you mean the owner took his own life and the facility is closing and you're discharging me?
Molly Bierman (22:49)
Truly.
Samantha Osterlof (23:11)
discharging my son. He's a liar. I'm like, no, he's not lying. That's how crazy he was. And the way that, again, like my current company has kind of just...
Molly Bierman (23:15)
Yeah,
Samantha Osterlof (23:21)
kind of just like come around and support me through the whole thing. It's another thing where I'm like, okay, I definitely got to trust these guys, right? Like they definitely have my best interests. Like, so it's been a long journey and that's where, you know, recovery isn't linear and careers aren't either. And, you know, I firmly believe that I'm being tested because I'm coming up on being 40. And then in all this, my husband brought home a dog.
Jill Griffin (23:46)
my God.
Samantha Osterlof (23:47)
Well
Jill Griffin (23:48)
The dog sends it over the edge. didn't see this is our first time meeting, so I didn't know your relationship with that facility. But I, you know, we obviously had I'm from Connecticut, so there's obviously a facility up here and it just.
Samantha Osterlof (23:59)
Yeah. Let me tell you that
community, your community, I don't know if you live in a specific community. They were so phenomenal. They held like the one huge organization. forget. It's like the big medical hospital system,
They ran a job fair for...
Jill Griffin (24:13)
Hartford HealthCare.
Molly Bierman (24:17)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, for those people. Yeah.
Jill Griffin (24:18)
So our
office manager was the office manager at their outpatient facility. And it just happened to line up where that happened and she reached out to us maybe the week after. And I will tell you that we are basically your new employer kind of healing her through that experience because it was very traumatic.
Samantha Osterlof (24:29)
I was thoughtful.
Jill Griffin (24:40)
One day, one day this is, and she had contact with all the clients. I mean, I think it probably hurt her more than the actual therapist because she had contact with everyone and she was the one on the phone doing all this stuff.
But I will say what's coming to mind as you're saying this is, if you're somebody listening to this and you're in management or you own your own business.
You probably don't, I'm actually getting chills, you probably do not realize the impact you actually have on the community around you. It's not just the clients. We have an opportunity to also heal the staff and the families that work for us, right? Because it's not just us. It's not just the staff person, it's their families and how you are when you go home to them at the end of the night and how you create their experience so they can actually
Samantha Osterlof (25:08)
Mm-hmm.
Jill Griffin (25:28)
have that work-life balance and be a regulated person going home to parent their own children now, right?
Because, so I think like that experience really showed what that ripple effect is. That happened over multiple, nationwide. mean that story affected people everywhere.
Samantha Osterlof (25:40)
⁓ And there
was beauty in it because of living in this town. For the first six months, I couldn't, every time I left my house, right?
whether it was to go to the gas, to get gas or to get coffee or grocery shopping or whatever it was, I would get emotional every day because we talk about these, in recovery, we talk about the ties that bind us together, right? And every single day of those, I think it was about six months, because I would come home crying, my husband would be like, oh my God, what is happening now? And I'm like, I just saw so and so, the driver at Turkey.
And it was the day after Scott, which was the second individual that we lost. And I went into the Turkey Hill to get cigarettes to soothe my grief. And I looked up and it's one of the drivers that I worked with when I was there. And the way that I am, I'm very empathetic.
Jill Griffin (26:31)
As we do.
Molly Bierman (26:34)
as we go.
Samantha Osterlof (26:39)
I build relationships quickly. I somehow am able to maintain them. So that wasn't just a job for me for six years. That was like, it was like...
Molly Bierman (26:48)
a lifestyle.
Samantha Osterlof (26:49)
Yeah, it was like being the senior that stays an extra year. know, like, it was like, like every time I went back to the facility, anytime that like I went to one of their outings or was invited to the one of their parties, even though I no longer worked there, like I was the person that got like just got to walk in and people be like, ⁓ Samantha, know, it's like, everybody knows, you know, who you are. And then all of a sudden me and the driver, are hysterically crying, hugging in Turkey Hill. Okay. No lie.
Jill Griffin (26:52)
You
Molly Bierman (26:53)
Mm-hmm.
Samantha Osterlof (27:16)
the cast register lady starts crying, right? Because she's so upset about it, because she really loved when the outpatient clients would come in to buy energy drinks and probably vapes and cigarettes. And she loved watching how they would change. And she was devastated to hear that the facility was gonna have to close. So like this community that I have lived in for almost 14, 15 years,
Jill Griffin (27:28)
T-Rex.
Molly Bierman (27:32)
⁓
Samantha Osterlof (27:42)
They were devastated too, because it was jobs. Like people who were struggling to get entry-level jobs in our community had jobs at retreat where they felt so like meaningful and fulfilled. but it took a lot of jobs away. And then again, I'm going to get, you a Big Mac, cause I'm sad. And I go through and then again, crying at the drive-through because one of the women that worked in the kitchen.
is working there and I'm hysterical, you know? And so the beauty of it was that I don't think a day goes by since they have passed, that I don't run into someone who's connected to someone who's connected like to my ripple or to the story. And those are the things that like I really try to lean into so that I don't get caught up in the grief and the anger and that
Molly Bierman (28:07)
Ugh.
Samantha Osterlof (28:29)
like betrayal, know, the betrayal piece of it. But it's a needed service and the community was very, you know, because they did, Retreat did a lot for the communities that they resided in. I mean, in our town, we were on the parade flute every year and making donations to the, you know, the chamber and the borough. So.
coming through that now too. I'm like, no more severe traumas now, please anybody. the next like I told my parents, my in-laws, no one can get any, you can not have any issues for the next year. We just need a soft year to land here. 2026 is it. But yeah, being at an employer now that, you know, if you look at, if I look at my job, we have a lot of women.
Molly Bierman (28:56)
you
Samantha Osterlof (29:14)
that work for a facility that are different levels of leadership. And so I definitely think it's changing, but I'm grateful for my job being, I mean, it's owned and operated by three clinicians. How are they not gonna heal me? You know what I mean? I'm looking sad, but that's gonna let me be sad. ⁓
Jill Griffin (29:32)
So I think that makes such a difference, right? I mean, our
IOP is clinician led too. we had so many conversations prior to opening around the culture.
Samantha Osterlof (29:39)
God, when they asked me, are you okay?
When they said, are you okay? And I'm like, don't look at me. Don't look me in the eye. Okay, I got some, a bad complex. Stop it. If you tell me that you're upset with me, I will cry. But they've been healing.
Molly Bierman (29:52)
What has that,
I mean, what has that like really, you know, there's so many things that have occurred for you over the last couple of years. I mean, when you really start to unpack it all, really can't imagine, you know, I know that we had countless conversations about, you know, how you felt supported and, you know, doing whatever the community could, myself included, to check on you and others that had really been impacted. But putting that in a box like,
Samantha Osterlof (30:14)
Thank
Molly Bierman (30:19)
temporarily for this conversation, you then were jumping into a new version of you, a new version of motherhood, bringing a child into the world that you were so terrified and everything was happening through all the different elements of your transitions, your chapters. What do you feel like you
Samantha Osterlof (30:28)
⁓
terrified.
Molly Bierman (30:45)
had to change, unlearn, embrace. I mean, what did it look like coming into motherhood with a third baby in a very different timeframe and a very different season of your life? I mean, it was completely different.
Samantha Osterlof (30:59)
Mm-hmm. That was 24. Yeah, that was 24.
I will say that it definitely was an adjustment. They wanted me to take my full 12 off and I was like, after six, I need to come back. And the adjustment for me really was, you know, my kids, my older two, I was early into my career, I was working on getting degrees and I wasn't as still.
⁓ back then, as I am now, and some of that stillness does come from, for the first time ever, like having an employer that truly, it been a while since I had where I felt like, okay, I truly can put my kids first. Like it doesn't matter if it's the end of the month and when the missions need to be in, right? Like I can stay home, they're sick. This is where I need to be. so having that support.
You know, I came back from maternity leave, walked into the office, and then was told that I was being promoted on the leadership. And yeah, the leadership meeting we have weekly starts in 10 minutes. You can take your seat over here in this room. And I'm like, anybody just hear that? I went on a maternity leave and came back and they put me on the leadership team. Is this really happening?
And so that was like mind blowing and really keeping my boundary like, hey, this is what I need to be sane through the last couple of days where we've had snow and.
My kid, when you have three, like the ratio just adds of like things that can go wrong or kid that will get sick. So like they were sick, they were off school, we were snowed in. And it got to a point by like one o'clock that day that I said, listen, I just can't. I'm not gonna make any of the rest of my meetings today. Like I'm gonna push them because the two and a half year old's crawling on me.
literally crawling on me, feral, like on the screen and feeling and knowing and trusting that that wasn't gonna make me lose my job. One thing that was really hard for me and I still work on it is that when my boss calls, I don't immediately go, what happened or what's wrong? Or I don't immediately think that he's calling or tell me I did something wrong or to like correct me. Yeah.
Molly Bierman (32:43)
you
It's such a it is
such I feel that in my body. mean
Samantha Osterlof (33:11)
He's like,
you didn't freak out this time and I'm like no, trying to we were trying to lean into trust
Yeah.
Molly Bierman (33:17)
Yeah. And
I think some of the ways in which, I mean, I've watched from the peripheral, but some of the ways that you've been able to do that through doing off sites, through connecting with leadership outside of the day to day, right? Being able to zoom out and become more proactive than reactive. Everything that we tell, you know, I'm a big believer that we, you know, a lot of the things that we tell our families that we're helping to do, we don't actually do in our centers and in our facilities.
Samantha Osterlof (33:43)
Yeah.
Molly Bierman (33:45)
And so we become just as dysfunctional as the family systems that we're trying to help, but we're able to put on this mask to basically help them for a minute. And then we take off the mask and we go back into our family dysfunction in our work environment. And so, just from the very little that I've been able to see in the highlight reel, right? Of you being surrounded by a leadership team that believes in authenticity, accountability, boundaries, zooming out.
Jill Griffin (33:52)
Mm-hmm.
Molly Bierman (34:13)
And a lot of what Jill and I have really had to, you know, focus on and learn is that as we go through these moments and these seasons and these chapters of feeling face down, how am I going to be able to regulate the nervous system? How am I going to be able to show up in my work environment when, you know, I have three kids sick at home and I have this going on? It's like,
Samantha Osterlof (34:16)
you
Molly Bierman (34:37)
You know, maybe the best thing we can do for ourselves is say like, maybe I can't do it all, right? Like maybe, maybe it's like okay to say, you know, it's not gonna happen today. Do we need? Sure.
Samantha Osterlof (34:43)
Yeah, guys, it's hurting now.
Jill Griffin (34:48)
many signs from the universe do we pass up before we're like, alright, I'm
waving the flag. Like, today's not the day.
Samantha Osterlof (34:53)
100.
100. The dog knocked the coffee in. I'm like, you know what? But having the, like, first you have to have the voice to say that, and then you have to feel comfortable using the voice and then feel safe that using that voice and saying that to your employer is that, you know, I want to hold down to the same integrity standard that I hold myself. Right? So.
Molly Bierman (34:55)
Well, yeah, a hundred. I would agree with that.
Samantha Osterlof (35:16)
If you say to me, Samantha, if you're overwhelmed and you got a lock one on one, take a day, take a week, actually, he said. If you feel like you're going to lose your mind, let's take the time off before you lose your mind, right? And really being supported in doing that, that like, hey, today's just like not going well. And during that first year and all the way up till today from that loss is...
having ⁓ feeling safe to say, hey, I'm like grieving way too hard today. Like I took off the anniversary of the first year because I didn't know how I was going to feel. And although I know I can be vulnerable at work, I didn't want to go in and have a mental breakdown. I didn't want to go in and have like a crying fit. But that safety is everything, regardless of, know, whether you're a man, woman, leadership, not leadership.
the safety that you can grieve or take time off. I mean, if you want me to get on a Zoom with a new potential account and I'm crying, I can. I bet they worked at retreat or their husband did or somebody and then they're gonna start crying too.
Molly Bierman (36:17)
So.
Jill Griffin (36:17)
know what's
funny though? We talked about that in a previous episode around grief with, you know, the policies in a workplace don't support that, right? You get the bereavement time, you get four days off. I mean, a situation like that where an entire workforce gets let go, I mean, there's no, you gotta get back to work. I will say though that there are probably owners of businesses and also...
Samantha Osterlof (36:25)
No, they don't.
and you have to be directly related.
Jill Griffin (36:41)
leaders listening to this and they're like, well that's good for them, they can have unlimited PTO, but we couldn't do that because XYZ would fall apart and XYZ, this is why we can't do that. We created safety, it's like, well have you though? Because are you taking the temperature on your staff? What are you doing to make sure that that feeling of safety exists? And every system is different, but we don't do a good job at what Molly was saying.
We're a system just like our family systems that we treat and are we taking a deep dive and really looking at are we doing for our team what we want them to feel like when they show up for work every day? And I don't know that that's happening all the time and I would challenge anyone that's listening that says, we can't do this at our place of business to really look under the hood and have those conversations of like what fears get in the way of that? Because I think that's ultimately what's behind it and we have to show up and treat.
treat people the way we want them treating our clients, really.
Molly Bierman (37:39)
I mean, I think too that, well, I guess this is more of a question and maybe you both can answer is what do you, what would you tell someone who's stuck in a work environment or system that makes them feel that they're not worthy, that they can't advance, that no one will hire them, like even if they went to go apply for another job, that they're not, that they're not.
Jill Griffin (37:58)
Hmm.
Molly Bierman (38:01)
They don't have the credentials. No one will take a look at them. No one will take a risk on them because there are a lot of the, you know, environments that breed that kind of fear based culture, right? That if you were to take a wrong move that you not only could be sacrificed in your own position at the company, but there wouldn't be hope on the other side of the other company. mean, you know, Samantha, you've been somebody who's walked that walk.
Samantha Osterlof (38:25)
Mm-hmm.
Molly Bierman (38:25)
You've
walked through some pretty adverse work environments. So what would you say to somebody that's sitting, listening, looking to find their voice on what their next step could be?
Samantha Osterlof (38:35)
I would say to not stay still, right? Because I think a lot of people get caught up and they're like, if I leave this job, well, you don't have to necessarily leave that job while you're looking for other jobs, right? Now we can get in the culture of like, don't tell anyone at the job you're looking for a job or else they're gonna fire you from your current job, you know? Not even adding that into it, but.
doing what you can to maybe ask some questions. Let's say you applied somewhere and they didn't hire you. All right, well, why didn't they? And what do need to kind of fit in to kind of look in terms of solution base, right? We don't want to continue to talk about the problem, but where can we move into some of that solution? And I'd tell that person that if they don't have a mentor, they need one. And it should be, I think people should have two mentors, one internal.
So it's somebody at your job that mentors you that's been there longer than you. You don't complain about people to that person. That's not what it is. That's to break down situations that externally nobody would understand because nobody works with the personalities you do, right? And then somebody external who also works in the field, right? That you trust that can also be someone who's going, can direct you in the way of maybe working somewhere else.
Molly Bierman (39:28)
right?
Samantha Osterlof (39:49)
I would love to say like bust into leadership and be like, this is, you guys are the worst and this is wrong. But I don't know if that would be helpful. But seeing in the situation, if we can't, if you can't if you can't change it and you're not gonna speak up about it, then you gotta let it go.
Molly Bierman (40:04)
Mm.
Jill Griffin (40:05)
Absolutely, I think you have to take some action. There has to be action. And I will tell you as someone who gave this advice to someone and it ended up going very wrong, probably worst case scenario, diabolical. But you have to, and that person was my husband, by the way, you have to speak up to the...
Molly Bierman (40:08)
Mm-hmm.
Jill Griffin (40:23)
So you're a supervisor, right? You have to speak up. have to, if you're feeling unworthy or you're not getting what you need, you need to ask for that. And, you know, based on how that was received when I gave this advice to my husband and what happened from there, that just highlighted the absolute, you know,
instability of that system. That wasn't the right system for him to be in, right? And if somebody responds in that way to you, then that's not, then your fear has been validated. They do not value your worth, right? And so you don't belong there. But sometimes it's an us problem. Sometimes it's something we are struggling with internally and we have to give the opportunity for people to change too. But also sometimes the action could just be talking to other people in the field, maybe not applying for the job, but what else is out there? What am I, what could I be doing differently?
Molly Bierman (40:50)
Right. Right.
Jill Griffin (41:10)
actions do I need to take? Don't be stuck. Don't feel like you're stuck. There's too many stories in this field of people who have overcome adversity, who have not had the credentials, and have gotten to a position that they couldn't dream of being in. So there's plenty of people that you can reach out to to say, how did you get to where you are? And how do I get there?
Samantha Osterlof (41:30)
I mean, it's an uncomfortable conversation to have. Thinking back to the first one I had with that gal and then kind of just seeing how everything works out and ties together is for me too, is that I try to be, it sounds silly again, very cheesy, but I've had some really great bosses and then I've had maybe two or three not so awesome ones. And from each of those, I take something and
Molly Bierman (41:55)
Right.
Samantha Osterlof (41:56)
you know, for the gal that I had hired who's moving on, that I'm super, I'm sad, but I'm like super proud of her because she did everything to like change and grow and, you know, get a different position. But, you know, for her, as I've been supervising her, it was such a joy to supervise her because she, you know, did the things I would ask her to. And, you know, but she's going to move on and she's got to grow.
And, you know, what I kind of told her too, it's like, we just got to keep you moving, keep you going like next right thing. And I supervised her the way that I wish I was supervised. So I took all the pieces of like, you know.
the good parts of my supervisors, like the honesty, the being able to like have transparent conversations about your kids so you can like actually take time off, like helping teach somebody about the boundaries, like all those things that we can do to make sure that we're not, I always like to make sure I'm not adding to any of the dysfunction to the best of my ability, but you know, supervising her the way that I wish I had been supervised, you know, over the years.
Jill Griffin (42:57)
What you're really talking about is trauma-informed care from the top down. all of these, you know, trauma-informed is such a buzzword, but when we really look under the hood sometimes, we're not practicing that. And so all these things that you're discussing, honesty, transparency, boundaries, it's building a culture of being trauma-informed for the staff down to the clients.
Molly Bierman (42:58)
It's amazing.
Samantha Osterlof (43:01)
Yeah.
Molly Bierman (43:03)
Yeah.
Samantha Osterlof (43:21)
Yeah, like I trusted my boss, like when the first death happened, there was a period of time where like I knew about it, but they were still notifying other staff, right? And I wasn't staff. So I found out when I was walking into Hershey Park and the first person I thought to call was my supervisor.
Molly Bierman (43:21)
Thanks.
Samantha Osterlof (43:40)
because not because I thought he was gonna be warm and fuzzy, but because I knew he wouldn't tell anybody. Like he wasn't gonna pick up the phone we got off and be like, someone's so is gone, you know? And that says a lot about, you know, where I've come, not just as in leadership, but as a woman in leadership and allowing someone to like hold that space because I knew that I just knew he wouldn't tell anybody.
Didn't call him for the poor and fuzzy, called him and the first thing he says is, you alone? I said, I'm very much not alone. I'm at Hershey Park with my father and my kids.
Molly Bierman (44:00)
What?
think too that speaks to the consistency, right? Like that you consistently have
been showing up in a different way and then by way of you showing up in a different way, you were able to attract individuals that were going to show up differently for you. So if we really break that down, I mean, if you've listened to any of our episodes, you know that we like to...
have individuals share what they can give the listeners. I feel like you gave so much in this episode, but to be more formal about it, we ask people to give a permission slip. So if you were to give permission to our listeners, what would it be for?
Samantha Osterlof (44:44)
⁓ I would give you permission to give yourself a timeout. And what that means is like, if for you, that's a day and you go on a run and you don't have to worry about work. I'm not a runner for me. That's like, I'm sitting for me, right. Get the permission is, you can take a day, give yourself permission to take a day, whether you're a frontline business development, what doesn't matter, right?
Turn the phone off, give yourself a day. Because just because your phone's off, right? In early days in marketing, I used to think, well, then someone's gonna die. But I don't need to think like I'm God. Like there's other people to help. And just giving yourself permission to take a day and be intentional about the day, you know.
take a bath, I watch Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, I get caught up, then I get into the reels, right? And for me, that's my time out. But you know, that's my, that's the time. Give yourself permission, take a day and be intentional. Because we don't, as women, what I'll say is, I don't give myself permission enough as I should.
Molly Bierman (45:46)
Mm.
Samantha Osterlof (45:47)
You I'll seek that permission like to my husband or like, do care if I take a nap? You know, well, you have to reframe it. I'm going to go take a nap. have to give yourself permission, right? Which is always so much harder than someone giving us permission.
Molly Bierman (46:02)
Thank you so much. I am so grateful to have had you on for you to share parts of you that I know were both.
Samantha Osterlof (46:05)
Of course.
Molly Bierman (46:09)
painful and I know that it will help our listeners to step into their power and their voice. So thank you so, much. If you have not already, please give us a follow on YouTube, Instagram, check our website out, nopermissionnecessary.com. And if you would like to share any feedback or know how to get connected to Samantha, you can find her information in our show notes. Until next time, we'll see you next Tuesday.