The Truth About Therapy, Trauma & Being a Clinician

Apr 21

Episode 43 with Liz Modugno

In this episode of No Permission Necessary, Jill and Molly are joined by Liz Modugno to explore the realities of clinical work and what it actually takes to be effective in the therapy field.

They discuss the gap between education and real-world experience, and why qualities like empathy, while important, are not enough on their own to support meaningful client change. The conversation highlights how clinicians develop their skills over time, including navigating imposter syndrome, learning through direct experience, and expanding their clinical toolkit.

They also unpack common misconceptions about trauma, the growing influence of social media on mental health awareness, and the challenges of maintaining ethical, consistent care in a rapidly evolving industry.

This episode offers an honest look at the therapy profession, including the balance between clinical work and business ownership, and what it really takes to build and sustain an effective practice.

Jill Griffin (00:00)
Welcome back to No Permission Necessary. Today we have Liz Madugno, an EMDR clinician consultant and EMDR Institute approved facilitator. Besides being a colleague and dear friend of mine, she is also the heart behind Aspire Counseling of Connecticut and the Center for Healing Trauma. She helps clients heal through EMDR therapy and intensives while also supporting clinicians with consultation and advanced trainings. I have had the honor to be
Trained by her and go to her for all sorts of supervision questions She is deeply committed to creating spaces where both clients and therapists feel supported empowered and inspired and I hope you enjoy this episode today
Jill Griffin (01:00)
I've
been up since four. I've gone to the dentist and the gym already this morning. So I'm ready for a nap and lunch.
Liz Modugno (01:05)
What country is open
at this time?
Jill Griffin (01:08)
8 a.m. I was at the dentist. I had to get my new mouth guard.
Molly Bierman (01:09)
Cough cough
Liz Modugno (01:12)
Like Invisalign?
Jill Griffin (01:14)
No, like a night guard, like a night guard.
Molly Bierman (01:14)
We talk about Invisalign.
Liz Modugno (01:18)
fur.
Jill Griffin (01:18)
Mine, it was like seven years old and it was disgusting.
Molly Bierman (01:19)
than grinding teeth.
Liz Modugno (01:19)
for
your stress.
Molly Bierman (01:23)
Yeah. Yeah. They're not cheap though.
Jill Griffin (01:24)
It was an act of self
care. It was an act of self care to get a new one, okay? $770.
Liz Modugno (01:32)
Does insurance cover any of that?
Molly Bierman (01:33)
Are you
going to...what dentist are you going to?
Jill Griffin (01:35)
No.
Liz Modugno (01:35)
That's crazy.
Jill Griffin (01:36)
My insurance doesn't cover it at all.
Liz Modugno (01:38)
That seems like they should, like, you want to spend money so that they don't have to do work later.
Molly Bierman (01:38)
Yeah, it seems a little steep though. It seems a little
I don't think my insurance cover did and I think it was 300 bucks.
Jill Griffin (01:47)
Okay, well, I just went back from one dentist who wouldn't do it at all and also fucked up a cavity that I was in. So we transferred back to the original dentist. It's not a network with my insurance. So that's where we're at.
Molly Bierman (01:59)
⁓
so there it is, there it is, there it is.
Liz Modugno (02:01)
yeah.
Jill Griffin (02:01)
No, was just the private, that was the rate.
Molly Bierman (02:05)
Yeah, no clear on that.
Jill Griffin (02:07)
And if you think that I was going to shop around for a cheaper price and just get the thing where I got the last one, no shot.
Molly Bierman (02:15)
That's a good place to start. Do people shop around for things? Because I feel as though you don't really need to. If it's something that needs to be done, you just gotta just go for it. We had a guy who came to look at one of the doors, okay? One of the doors is missing like a little part, who knows, right? I don't know, but it won't lock, you know? So it needed to be fixed. And the guy comes and he...
tells me what it's gonna be and cost and whatever. And I'm like, okay, great. Parts are gonna be covered because it's under warranty and I'm paying for the labor. My husband's like, the labor's too expensive. I'm like, where are you doing labor analytics? Like, what are we talking here? I don't have time to go. I don't have time. I'm lucky enough that I got somebody on the phone. I got them here. We're going with it.
Jill Griffin (02:59)
Zero chance.
Liz Modugno (03:03)
Yeah.
Molly Bierman (03:03)
If you would like to uncover this mystery of figuring out another someone else who is contracted with this specific door and these specific vendors, sure, but no one has time for
Jill Griffin (03:16)
No.
Liz Modugno (03:16)
Yeah,
you kind of have to weigh how much your time's worth and most of the time it's not worth it. Yeah. Yeah, I agree.
Molly Bierman (03:21)
Exactly. Maybe I need to put
a rate on my time, like my personal time.
Liz Modugno (03:27)
I kind of think about this sometimes.
Jill Griffin (03:28)
start, I'm gonna, I'm
Molly Bierman (03:28)
Bye.
Jill Griffin (03:30)
gonna start doing clock like, I'm gonna start clocking in and out on everything that I do to manage the household. And I'm gonna start charging an hourly rate to the household. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So so when my husband wants to say, all these packages are coming to the house, excuse me, that that's part of my hourly rate. My that's part of the deal. Okay.
Molly Bierman (03:34)
Yeah
That's what I mean.
Yeah.
Liz Modugno (03:54)
I actually really like-
Jill Griffin (03:54)
Actually, this morning,
we're going away. You'll relate to this because Liz and I talk all the time about the workload, the group practice. I mean, feel like we've gotten closer over the last few years because of growing our businesses and just the cluster that turns into sometimes. But this morning, Alan's like, actually last night, he's like, ⁓ who's watching the dog when we go away? First of all, we're going away on Monday. Neither pet has the
any plan, okay? And I looked at him today and I said, this is what happens when I don't manage the details. And I made a very specific remark last week that if I had to do one more thing for one more person, like I was going to lose it. Like I cannot manage all of the details for all of the people and pets also.
Molly Bierman (04:43)
That's why there's no dog in this house or cat. Liz, do you have animals?
Jill Griffin (04:46)
Well...
Liz Modugno (04:47)
Yeah, we have a dog. Yeah, so, but we have a...
Molly Bierman (04:48)
Oof.
Did you have the dog
before the third kid or after the third kid? ⁓
Liz Modugno (04:53)
before the third kid, yeah.
So, but we have like college student who walks them and takes care of them when we go on vacation. Yeah.
Jill Griffin (04:57)
If
Molly Bierman (05:01)
Yeah.
Was the dog, can I ask another more specific question? Because this comes up a lot. Was the dog like, was the dog the solution to the itch for the third kid where you're like, maybe I just need to get a dog. And then you were like, the dog didn't scratch the edge. So then you actually had to have the third kid.
Jill Griffin (05:02)
Stay cool, my friend.
Liz Modugno (05:18)
No,
no, actually, we got the dog during COVID. COVID, yeah, it's a COVID dog. But COVID was definitely a time when I'm like, I don't want any more kids because COVID destroyed me. You have two kids at home. I were growing a practice. And I remember doing sessions and
Molly Bierman (05:23)
okay, so it's a COVID dog. Okay.
Liz Modugno (05:40)
my mom was helping watch the kids while she's working from home and I can just hear chaos happening. And I was like, this is so hard. And it wasn't until a couple of years later when I'm like, okay, COVID's done. And we were really, we were young when we had our first two kids. We were in our mid twenties. And I said, you know, we don't have a girl, want to try for a girl. And I read some old wives tales about cranberry juice and like all these old weird things.
and like the Chinese birth chart, yeah, the birth calendar, and we got a girl. So I was like, okay, that works. Yeah. I was like, this is the month. Like we need to figure this out. So yeah, and I consulted with Jill
Molly Bierman (06:10)
Yeah, the birth calendar. Yeah. Yeah. The birth calendar is real. The birth calendar worked for me too.
It's so awesome.
Jill Griffin (06:26)
Surprisingly,
I signed off on this.
Molly Bierman (06:29)
Which is so weird of you, honestly.
Jill Griffin (06:31)
Listen, I'm a neutral party. put my therapist hat on and I was like, well, it sounds like you really want to have a third. And so we laid out some scenarios of what that was going to look like. And the reality is like, you just figure it out.
Liz Modugno (06:34)
She did.
Molly Bierman (06:42)
Jill's
never a neutral party with me. So weird to experience her in that light.
Jill Griffin (06:48)
What do you mean? I mean...
Yeah, at this stage, at this stage right now, if you were like, I'm going to go for a third, I'd be like, I'm really questioning your sanity right now, actually, because I don't. Yeah, I don't know that that's going to be a good idea. But I'll be here when you want to when you want some support. I might say I told you so, but go for it.
Molly Bierman (06:50)
Just a different dynamic.
You already have. You already have.
to be saying.
You bet. Listen,
I love a friend that says I told you so because sometimes I also have to be that friend or colleague.
So what are we getting into today? This is so exciting. Liz and I, you know, for some of the listeners, Liz and I worked together many years ago and she was such influential person in my life because I was starting in a space with not a lot of, with more
I would say I had more peer knowledge and like personal experience than I did professional experience when I segued into my role when we worked at Westport House and Clearpoint together. And I saw you who was helping build out curriculum and understand like the clinical core issues that our clients suffered from and really kind of that extension of how do we help
clients who need to change their lifestyle naturally because they're addicted to substances and alcohol and have mental health challenges, but simultaneously partner that with really clinical core values that can catapult the client and the family into a level of healing that they wouldn't get in just the housing component. And it was such a new experience for me because I had never worked in that type of program. I'd always worked in the housing side and
I feel like we kind of grew up together in a lot of ways at that job. And one of your clinicians supervised me while I was going through my addiction counseling certification, Margo. And yeah, it's just been so nice to watch it come full circle and see all of the wonderful things you're doing. So I'm excited to hear more and kind of what, maybe even just to get started, like that transformation.
Jill Griffin (08:42)
Thanks.
Molly Bierman (08:45)
That feels like a very long time ago for me. I'm sure it feels like a very long time ago for you. So what
Liz Modugno (08:49)
and gloves.
And I also want to say, you know, I...
Molly Bierman (08:52)
Maybe you would.
Jill Griffin (08:53)
Was that
your last, wait, was that your last agency job, Liz?
Liz Modugno (08:57)
No, I was a progressive after that. Yeah.
Molly Bierman (08:57)
Yeah. No.
Jill Griffin (09:00)
Yes, okay. When did you leave
though, Agency Works?
Liz Modugno (09:03)
Right before COVID, like very early 2020.
Jill Griffin (09:08)
So we did the same thing. We just ripped the band-aid off, yeah.
Liz Modugno (09:09)
Yeah, we were right. Yeah,
we were neck and neck, you and I. I just want to piggyback on what Molly said because I remember we really did grow up together. And I think that you had more of a, like you said, you were more involved in the peer support section. your approach I really looked up to, was like, wow.
Molly's real and she gets in there and the way that she relates to the clients. I was really trying to find myself too. And I remember you did this. You were doing an intervention. I'm clinical and you're there. We're both working with this young man. And it was in Al's office. I don't know if you remember this. I don't remember who it was, but I remember I had this imposter syndrome. I'm like, I'm in here.
Molly Bierman (09:51)
I don't, but I'm so excited to hear this story.
Liz Modugno (10:00)
I'm a clinician here and I got to get this guy some support. And you just jumped right in so smooth and you talked him through it and really helped him see a healthier way to, I don't know if we were getting him inpatient or what was happening, but you just swooped right in. like, I want to be like Molly. Like she's doing great here.
Molly Bierman (10:21)
my God, that's so nice. That's
so nice. I feel like having the support of just people in general, like when you look at the, when you know that people are in the right seat, right? And I think this comes up a lot on the podcast is like, when you have somebody who's in the right seat and you have that support in that right infrastructure, it really does give not only me the confidence to be able to speak up in those settings because a lot of times,
I also struggled with imposter syndrome. People may not have noticed that with me as much because I feel like my grit sometimes can overcompensate to like kind of push that to the side of it. And that kind of scrappiness that I, you know, that recovery scrappiness that, you know, you kind of achieve once you've landed in recovery yourself. But I really wanted to come from a clinical lens. Like there was so many parts of me
that relied on the personal experience. And as I started to evolve in my career, I was like, this isn't gonna serve me forever, right? And this is what I share a lot with clients and not so much clients, but people that have worked for me that come in really passionate about the recovery space, right? We see this all the time. They're extremely passionate. They wanna help more people. They wanna really give, know, give it away to keep it.
you know, that tried and true saying. And what they realized, or at least what I realized very quickly was that I needed more tools in my toolkit. I needed more of an arsenal to be able to step into a conversation or feel confident talking with a clinical director or feel confident talking with a residential treatment program about their clinical work and how we could partner and work together. So, you know, just as much as maybe I was able there to inspire you and
you know, hitting it head on because I feel like that is just part of my nature. I also feel like the dance that clinicians do is also really valuable in a lot of ways. Like sometimes a bull in a china shop does not work with a
Liz Modugno (12:15)
Totally. Totally. Yeah.
Molly Bierman (12:16)
Sometimes it's scarce though.
Jill Griffin (12:18)
Well, that's where there's a mix. And I've always mentored throughout my career people in recovery who go on to become clinicians. And I know, Liz, you've seen these people throughout their career, your career. And the people who cannot expand that toolkit beyond their personal story of recovery really struggle with interventions because
That only lands with certain clients. mean, and if you pull that tool out too early and they don't care, you've lost them. Like you have nothing left to do. I mean, and it took a while growing up, I think, in my own path to be like, I mean, I very rarely self-disclose anymore with a client. It's rare in a clinical setting, because honestly, they don't give a shit. It's not relatable anymore. It's just not.
Molly Bierman (12:44)
Yes.
Yeah.
Liz Modugno (13:08)
Yeah. I think clients know when you know your stuff. I'm not in recovery, so I felt like I had something more to prove during a lot of my earlier years. everyone comes into this field for different reasons, but in the beginning, I knew a lot of the clinical aspects of it. But then relating to someone, I think I always did relate to people.
Molly Bierman (13:19)
Mm-hmm.
Liz Modugno (13:33)
Just like Jill, I don't disclose anymore. People, I know my stuff because I've been working in this field for so long and I understand it in a different way than I did 10 years ago when we started. But I think it's the same thing. I was just coming from a different side and I think watching you and even being friends with Jill and speaking with her, I am always learning. I'm always open to learning, which I think is important.
Jill Griffin (13:56)
bet you some clients think you're in recovery though, because you probably talk the talk. Yeah. No, you probably talk the talk about 12 step and what that looks like and how, why it's important. I mean, you've been doing this long enough.
Molly Bierman (13:59)
There you go. There you go.
Liz Modugno (14:00)
Well, do you... Yeah.
I told you a
a couple of weeks ago, Jumanah Murphy was like, you're in recovery, right? And I was like, no, she's like, oh, you're still cool. You know your stuff. And I was like, I was like, I guess, you know, I, I know, I know.
Jill Griffin (14:17)
That's a compliment from a
sober clinician.
Molly Bierman (14:21)
do feel like that was a lot of what attracted clients to feeling open with Liz too. I got to watch that with you firsthand and a lot of the clients, there was more of a desire to say, this woman feels like she gets me and she can understand what I'm going through and then it didn't matter.
Liz Modugno (14:41)
And then it didn't matter.
Yeah. Yeah.
Molly Bierman (14:44)
Right. Exactly. And then it doesn't
matter. Once you're able to sit there and grow the rapport and start to transition someone from pre-contemplation to action, mean, you know, kind of the rest is history. They're not kind of getting hung up on whether you're in recovery or not. And a lot of times when clients are getting hung up, whether you're in recovery or not, it's because they're kind of ambivalent about wanting to change, to be quite honest. You know, like if that's their main focal point in the session or if that's their main focal point with you in a...
group, usually that's their own protector and their own barrier that we see come up. And so it's how to get creative around that question, you know, because that will stop clinicians right in their tracks. They will get so anxious and so unhinged. They're like, when clients are direct, and I guess that's a question that I do have for you, Liz, like as you've evolved and, know, kind of taking it back, you know, a decade ago now, which to me feels like so crazy.
Liz Modugno (15:26)
Yeah.
Molly Bierman (15:38)
But a decade ago now, some of the things that intimidated you about working with Substance Use Disorders, how has that evolved and changed? And what were some of the stuck points that you had, like working in the recovery space? Like, were there things that really scared you, or things that really felt uncomfortable for you as a clinician that you really had to walk through?
Liz Modugno (15:56)
Yeah, I think that, again, going back to it, 10 years ago, we were young. I was in my 20s when I had my master's and I became licensed. by the time right before my 30th birthday, I became clinical director of Clearpoint. And there was so much imposter syndrome. And it helped me
It helped me to step up to the plate and push myself. The things that I was nervous and scared about, was never, I was trying really hard not to let it show on the outside. I remember being in like meetings though, especially after Clearpoint when I went to Progressive. I was the clinical director there too and I had to show up.
And a lot of times I was the youngest person there and I was the only female there and I was faking it till I made it. And I don't think anyone really knew that I was insecure about it. But I think those things, I think I do push myself hard to excel. And when I push myself, I have to, I try my best to show up. I'm
Molly Bierman (16:48)
Totally female, yeah.
Liz Modugno (17:08)
doing extra trainings and reading and preparing myself and pulling in people around me that are supportive, like Jill and other people that I can call and say, hey, this is what's going on. What do you think? Am I on the right track with my thoughts? I think to go back to your question too, at the end of the day, even though I wasn't in recovery, I really was able to empathize and I think that
just hearing people's stories and struggles and being there with them and holding a safe space, that also helped me to feel more comfortable in the work that I was doing. ⁓
Molly Bierman (17:41)
Yeah.
Jill Griffin (17:42)
I mean, it's one of those things where we get on the phone, Liz is one of the first people I call because we have similar size practices, we similar staffing issues. I mean, it's all, you know, we have the agency experience, but it's very different when you have an HR person versus you are the HR person. ⁓
Liz Modugno (18:01)
Yeah.
Jill Griffin (18:01)
And I would say that's probably the majority of the things we end up talking about. It's like the, the operational side, the HR side, like people don't really consider that when they go to open a private practice. But speaking of like faking it till you make it, it's like some of the times, you know, we've met or talked on the phone. It's like, I don't even know what I'm doing here. Do you know what I'm supposed to do? And we're like, no, and like, cause I think everybody thinks that.
Liz Modugno (18:09)
Nah.
Jill Griffin (18:28)
When you're the person in charge, it's just kind of like when you become an adult, you you think, ⁓ I'm gonna know what to do. We don't, none of us know what we're doing half of the time. We're just, there is a certain element of like, we're just throwing it against the wall and seeing if it sticks.
Molly Bierman (18:39)
So true.
Liz Modugno (18:43)
I do think though there is a willingness to figure out how to do it where some people in our position are not as thorough as they can be. So I think we're running really thorough ethical practices that we have built from the ground up and we're following the laws and the regulations and we do everything that we can so that we're not.
Molly Bierman (18:51)
Right.
Jill Griffin (18:52)
Totally.
Liz Modugno (19:07)
We're doing our best and we're winging it some days, but we're doing it in an ethical and appropriate way.
Jill Griffin (19:13)
Yeah, it's not in this like rogue way, which we've seen how that looks on the other side, but I think it's still like, I don't know, this sounds right. There's no like, because there's so many different ways to approach even like the supervision issues or the staffing issues. And it's like, you know, just like every client's different, we're doing person centered care, the staff's different too, and how we're approaching them. So.
Liz Modugno (19:17)
Totally.
Jill Griffin (19:40)
You know, both of us, Liz is an EMDR consultant and facilitator. She is actually my EMDR consultant I'm doing some of that work.
Liz Modugno (19:45)
Mm-hmm.
Although I do call you,
I do call you sometimes and I'm like, what do you think about this?
Jill Griffin (19:53)
Well, I feel like that's...
Molly Bierman (19:54)
Well, Liz, you've been
doing EMDR a decade ago. I mean, when you were doing EMDR with the light bar, I remember when you got your first light bar and you were doing it in the Clearpoint offices.
Liz Modugno (20:03)
Yeah, that's right. I got trained in 2010. So it's been even more than yeah. 16 years now that I've been doing it.
Jill Griffin (20:08)
wow.
Molly Bierman (20:12)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jill Griffin (20:14)
So how did you get into EMDR? What was your draw to that?
Liz Modugno (20:18)
So I was working in New Haven in a homeless shelter and I was really trying to
Molly Bierman (20:23)
I mean, just
respect. I mean, that's it. mean, re-
Jill Griffin (20:26)
I mean,
who hasn't?
Liz Modugno (20:27)
I feel like a lot of people haven't these days when they're coming into this field. think that's where this is where we started as social workers.
Jill Griffin (20:31)
real post-COVID.
Molly Bierman (20:31)
Bye.
Jill Griffin (20:37)
Yes.
Molly Bierman (20:38)
Yes.
Or we were in the shelter.
to do.
Jill Griffin (20:42)
Or both. Or both.
Liz Modugno (20:43)
someone has experience.
So I was working in the shelter and I was trying to figure out how I was going to help the people that I was working with. There was a lot of case management. I was trying to figure out like, is therapy and having these existential thoughts about it? What direction am I going to take? And I remember I was at work one day and my cousin called she had just had a baby. And she said,
there's this there's called EMDR. I know you're I was getting my master's at the time. I was working and I was interning at the same agency. And she says, before you graduate, you have to get trained in this. This is amazing. She had the experience that after she had her first son, she was having this overwhelming amount of anxiety and stress and like fear like what if I hurt my baby by accident? And you know, what if I go to the crib and
he's not awake or if he rolls and he falls and I seriously hurt him. And she was having lot of this stress and she went to an EMDR therapist and she's doing the EMDR and everything's going really smooth. But nothing too critical is coming up. Between two sessions, she has this dream that reminds her of a memory that she had repressed from when she was a kid. Her mom gave her a bunny.
And she said, you're the mom bunny and this is your baby bunny. And you have to take care of this bunny. And she came home one day and she witnessed that a dog had gotten in the cage. And it was so traumatic to her and how she viewed herself as a caretaker that for years she became tearful when she thought about it and eventually just repressed it, didn't bring it up. And when she had her son, this narrative of I'm a bad mom,
I'm not a good caretaker came up and she ended up reprocessing that. And it completely changed her life. She no longer carried that fear around. She was able to show up as a mom and she's like, this is amazing. You have to try it out. And then that same year while I was in my master's program, I ended up getting trained and that's history.
Molly Bierman (22:45)
I mean, talk about how the body holds the score. mean, that is wild. Such a good example though too of how EMDR really isn't about the challenge that somebody's going through or the current emotional response. It's more so hidden somewhere in the body from years ago.
Jill Griffin (22:51)
Well, I think.
One thing that keeps coming up a lot in recent clients that I'm working with is, and this is related to that, where attachment trauma is a big thing, number one, but number two, like just childhood stuff that happens. And I think when people think of EMDR, they think of trauma and they think of big events, assaults, war, accidents, these big dramatic things, right?
Molly Bierman (23:26)
Right.
Jill Griffin (23:30)
But more often what I see EMDR being helpful for, and I'd love for you to speak about this, when people become parents, I see this as a very critical point to people in their unraveling a lot of times. Because what happens is you now see a part of you outside of yourself, and at different ages where maybe you have these events that happen that you may not even relate to as trauma.
but there are events that happen in your life and you start becoming activated by them, but you don't even know that you're activated by it. You don't know that that's the reason. Like, can you speak to that? like, do you see clients like this happen? I'm sure you do.
Molly Bierman (23:54)
Thank
Liz Modugno (24:08)
Yeah, yeah. So I know Daniel Siegel writes lot about this. I don't know if you read the book Parenting from the Inside Out, but it's the same thing. It's that we have these experiences as kids and then we when are especially the ages that are that the experiences happened to the client when their child is going through the same thing, they start to project and like you said, unravel and
Jill Griffin (24:24)
Yes.
Liz Modugno (24:35)
you know, they're maybe not as clear where they're coming from. And it's not, think EMDR, people have the idea that it's for PTSD, these big events. And a lot of the people that I'm seeing, I mean, I think depression and anxiety disorders are created from traumas that have happened to people. those are great diagnoses to also use EMDR on because those negative beliefs that are coming up,
around the anxiety and around the depression stem from experiences that usually happen to these people when they were younger and they've these new beliefs about themselves that they carry. And sometimes very subconsciously, I mean, we do a float back in EMDR where you basically bring up something that's present, that's disturbing someone, and we ask them to bring up picture,
Molly Bierman (25:15)
Yeah.
Liz Modugno (25:27)
their negative thoughts, what emotions come up for them and where they feel it in their body. When did you feel like this earlier in your life? And people will come up with experiences they haven't thought about for years that we just tapped into with this question that doesn't get brought up if you're just asking someone, hey, tell me about bad things that happened to you. Tell me about the traumas that you experienced.
Jill Griffin (25:49)
Because they minimize it. They minimize it as something that's even like a thing. Because our conscious self has judgment around that, right? Like, ⁓ well, one thing that comes up a lot is like, you know, a parent that was absent a lot or missed things because they were working. Or they weren't attuned to them in some way. The logical self comes up and it's like, well, of course, that's how they provided for us. Like, it was totally...
Like they had to do that and they justify it. it's like, but two things can be true at the same time. They could have done the best they could providing and you didn't get what you needed from them.
Liz Modugno (26:25)
Mm-hmm.
Molly Bierman (26:26)
Thank
Jill Griffin (26:26)
You know, and how do we then process and resolve
that? And so, you know, the flip side of that is really having that therapeutic rapport with clients to say like, it's okay, because some people have really good relationships with their parents as adults. And it's hard for them to look back and say, I didn't get what I needed from my parent. That feels like, that doesn't feel right for me to say that.
Liz Modugno (26:48)
Yeah.
Molly Bierman (26:49)
What do you feel like is a common misconception knowing that you've been in the trauma EMDR space for a very long time, probably before it was even most likely, it was not as much of a relevant hot modality, you know, back 15 years ago. Where do you feel like there are misconceptions around trauma, EMDR?
the impact of social media, people self diagnosing. I mean, you know, we could probably have a litany of questions on this, but you know, what are some of the ways that, what really kind of grinds your gears about a clinician who's practiced for as long as you have.
Liz Modugno (27:15)
Mmm!
think social media is a huge help and a hindrance for therapists because people are coming in, ⁓ I think, just like with medications, people used to see them on TV and be like, I want this medication, I have this disorder. Now they're coming in and they're throwing around words they really don't understand. Like I have a dissociative disorder. And I'm like, I'm pretty sure you don't. ⁓
Molly Bierman (27:42)
Right.
Thank
Liz Modugno (27:54)
at let's talk about what that means. Where did you learn this information? I think that it helps. think I think some things that help is it's social media has made trauma, people be more become more aware of trauma and what what experiences could be seen as traumatic. But like you said, the things that grind my gears is when they're coming in and they're saying they're almost either getting their therapy from social media or
Molly Bierman (28:18)
Right.
Liz Modugno (28:19)
I have a lot of clients for
chat GPT. Yeah. You know, hey, Liz, we talked about this thing last week and I chat GPT'd it and it actually said the same thing that you said. And I was like, I know. So I think, I know I'm like, I'm really happy that you fact checked me with chat GPT. That makes me feel some kind of way about our work together.
Jill Griffin (28:21)
GBC.
I only got a master's degree for that, thanks. An extensive post-grad training, but I'm glad.
Liz Modugno (28:48)
so I think, I think chat, GBT, tick tock and Instagram, like reels of trauma. And then I also think that there's a lot of self-directed EMDR. Like people can actually do EMDR with them by themselves. And I think giving people too much information and too much access Can become super problematic because it takes out the human aspect and it takes out.
It puts therapy into people's hands.
Jill Griffin (29:15)
can tell you what grinds my gears on the opposite end is...
Molly Bierman (29:18)
⁓ we didn't
think you'd hold back. Go ahead.
Jill Griffin (29:21)
Yeah, well grinds my gears on the well, this is going to agree with me. Our therapists that get EMDR trained and then they throw it out there that they are EMDR trained because they did the basic training and then they get zero consultation from there. And then you get the client that saw them and they don't want to do EMDR. And then you ask them.
Liz Modugno (29:27)
Mmm.
Jill Griffin (29:42)
just explain to me what your EMDR process look like. And it is nothing like what EMDR should actually look like because they've never gotten consultation since the basic training. So for anyone listening to this, if you are going to get EMDR, you need to make sure that not just that they're EMDR trained, but I would ask, are you getting regular consultation? Because I don't think that the person necessarily needs to be certified. However, you want to make sure that they're being
led in the right direction because it's so much information. And if you're a clinician listening to this, you can't get by with just the basic training. You just can't.
Molly Bierman (30:16)
Well,
I think that's consultation in general, right? So, when we think about zooming out, not just in the EMDR space, but behavioral health space, or whatever space you work in, the idea is that you become a master of your skill the more you put in the manpower and the hours. But in order for us to zoom out and get creative and start to take new avenues,
Obviously in the behavioral health space, there's continuing ed credits. Obviously that also happens in this psychiatric field as well as the medical field that a certain amount of hours that you need to kind of, you know, meet in order to meet your quota for your license renewal. But, you know, there's a lot of ways where you can kind of cheat that too, you know, that there's online courses, there's, you know, kind of, you know, click to pay.
And really what that only hinders is the ability to see other ways and aspects of how you can continue to grow your career and also be able to educate yourself on different avenues of how, you know, how to help clients. So, you know, when we think about it, I think it's more so where are you getting your consultation? Where are you getting your mentorship? Where are you getting your business advice, your administrative advice? mean, there's so many aspects to running a healthy business. It's not just.
you know, the clinical lens. I think therapists also get stuck there in a lot of ways. You know, I was just having a conversation earlier in the week where I'm working facility who has a very talented clinical department. And the clinical department is really, you know, well renowned.
But the challenge is that the administrative space and the siloed departments that happen in all types of centers at the outpatient, intensive outpatient, and residential level, as well as hospitals, become kind of like on the back burner for the clinician. Because the clinician looks at it as like, oh, well, you need consultation for clinical work. You need consultation for this group. You need consultation for an intervention.
But what they don't realize is that how is that whole department also intersecting with all the other areas? And I think that's as a clinician, have your clinician hat on, but maybe Liz kind of share a little bit about how you've had to expand that as you've created your own business, because the same hat that you wear in the clinical space working with a client is vastly different than probably what you need to do with your CPA and your policies and procedures and how to stay within the state guidelines.
which really have little to nothing to do with clinical work.
Liz Modugno (32:43)
100%. 100%. I think that there's a lot of compartmentalization in your brain when you're working with different aspects of a business because you're right. And I actually like to almost separate those different things that I'm doing on different days. So when I'm doing clinical work, I'm sure Jill can
relate to this. When you're doing clinical work and you're in a clinical mind and then you have some administrative email that comes in that's urgent, your brain, it's two different parts of your brain that you're using for me, it's very hard to do both on the same day. So like maybe I'll chunk my clients together and then I'll do admin at a different time, but you really want to be present for your clients when you're doing the clinical work. And then when you're doing the admin work,
a different hat, right? So just like Jill was talking about before, managing staff is not providing therapy to clients. So what you're saying to them and how you're guiding them and also ⁓ upholding rules and policy isn't delivered in the same way. And shifting into those different roles,
⁓ takes a lot of practice and it takes time to learn how to shift between those roles that you have in your job. And as a business owner, there's the marketing component and keeping good relations. then you are also writing. Actually, funny thing is I had sessions
yesterday afternoon and then I ran to my CPA and then I had to like come home and after my kids went to sleep, I was doing some more work. So managing a business, lot of people right now are like, I want to get into private practice. I want to open a group practice. It is very complex
It takes a lot of time and energy and it's not as glorified as it might appear from the outside.
Molly Bierman (34:37)
Yeah. mean, I think that that's a lot of the preconceived notions too, that people think like, oh, I'm going to do this. And it's, you know, going to be community, which I think a lot of people yearn for, right? Especially, you know, going from, you know, but community in a little bit more of an un...
Jill Griffin (34:37)
No, I... Yeah.
Molly Bierman (34:53)
you know, in like a little bit more of an unstructured way. A lot of people come out of agency, they feel like, oh, they were told kind of how to do clinical work or they were had expectations of how things needed to go. And so there's a little bit more freedom going into some level of group practice and you still can work with community, right? With other clinicians. And I think that kind of scratches a certain edge for sure. But I do think that, you know, as you start to uncover
some of the administrative tasks that come with running a business. what were some of the things that you thought you knew about business? And then once you got into business, you were like, well, didn't realize that that was going to be so impactful or so hard. Like, were there any sort of initial thoughts that, you know, were quickly negated?
Liz Modugno (35:38)
Yeah, I think a lot of the accounting tasks, I think managing.
everything that comes along with payroll, all the benefits, the 401k. The way that my group operates is we have all W2s, so we don't have any contractors, which was an advisement of my CPA.
Jill Griffin (35:46)
worse.
Liz Modugno (35:56)
get into a payroll system to create the 401k, everyone was really eager to be like, yeah, sign up for this. This is a great service. I'm like, yeah, this is great. I'm going to get support and they're going to help me manage it. And as soon as you purchase it, then you have to run it. I had to get, so I got a financial advisor to run it, but I was like, this is great. I have no idea what I'm doing. And you just gave me all this responsibility.
Molly Bierman (36:07)
So.
Liz Modugno (36:22)
So it was a lot of learning and a lot of calls to Jill about like, what are we going to do now? But you do figure it out. You step up to the plate and...
Molly Bierman (36:29)
Yeah.
Jill Griffin (36:31)
You ask people a lot of questions that have done it before because you're like, ⁓ I didn't realize that now I would have to be the one doing this, yeah.
Liz Modugno (36:35)
I'm out.
Or even HR, like you said, we, and I share the same HR person. And that is another thing, you know, there's so much you don't know about HR until you have these, you have staff that don't work like you and I work. They're problematic. And, you know, I had a staff who showed up, I think they worked for three weeks and then
Molly Bierman (36:55)
a problem?
Liz Modugno (37:04)
they took a leave and I was, it was like my, maybe it was like the fourth staff that I had hired. And I was like, okay. And I didn't have, I don't think I had Maria at the time, our HR person. And I was trying to figure out what do I do? Is it, I have, do I, do I have to give her a leave? And she like ended responding when the leave was supposed to be over. Anyway, she like never came back, which was great. But I,
did not realize I was going to experience that. I did not realize.
Molly Bierman (37:33)
I have the best HR
stories, the best. And I'll give you one example because I don't think I've ever shared it on the podcast. So obviously when I was running the inpatient center, had, I did have a full-time HR specialist because you can't run an agency without it at that scale. And I actually had two people who wanted in office and then one who was her direct direct report. and one day I had.
Liz Modugno (37:39)
Ha ha!
Molly Bierman (37:56)
This employee had been problematic for a few different reasons. But what happened was employee came in for their day of work, right? And came in, walked back, said hello to me, said hello to the other people in the office, made a cup of coffee.
took the cup of coffee, left, never came back and never said bye, no resignation letter, nothing. And we sat there and we were like, is this actually reality? Like what is happening?
Jill Griffin (38:27)
You couldn't have had
the best coffee. I mean, there had to have been other places that had better coffee than a detox.
Molly Bierman (38:34)
It was a Keurig. To be clear, okay?
Jill Griffin (38:35)
Yeah, there's plastic
in that, to be clear.
Molly Bierman (38:40)
But yeah, you just don't know. Listen, there's... humans are...
Jill Griffin (38:44)
unpredictable. And I think what happens is I will say, and I know that we all have talked about this, because of the work that we do and the training that we have as clinicians, I do think that we have a higher standard in terms of behaving correctly, because it's like, we're pretty much trained on human behavior and how to kind of like, I don't know.
Liz Modugno (38:45)
Yeah.
Molly Bierman (38:46)
That's the word.
Liz Modugno (39:05)
Yeah.
Jill Griffin (39:11)
show up and do things in the right way. But you know, I do think that that part of it ends up being also a mental drag too, in terms of the relationships you built. We've talked about this a lot on here and I know Liz has privately where you have relationships with people. And I think over time, it's not that you get desensitized to it. But when you have people who are
performing at the level you want, can't hold these, you can't hold under performers on your staff. It brings everybody down. And it's like having to have those hard conversations when you have relationships with people is really hard. We've both been through that this year.
Liz Modugno (39:47)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, 100%, 100%.
Molly Bierman (39:56)
How do you hold people to high standards without burning them out?
Liz Modugno (40:00)
That's a good question. I think that something that I changed when I got into group, when I opened my group practice was I emphasized self-care for the clinicians. I think that a lot of agencies don't emphasize that. So we do try to prioritize the relationships.
by doing team building and we have weekly supervision and weekly team meeting and we do EMDR consultation and we have people from outside come in and speak and we have training opportunities. So there's a lot of room for connection internally, which I think a lot of practices don't have and I think that's what people are looking for.
So you're right, when you're forming these closer relationships with people and then having to hold them accountable, think that the way that we've structured Aspire, Aspire counseling, which is the practice that I own, is that right from the beginning, we are really honing in on how are we doing notes? How are we meeting with clients? We have an orientation.
Molly Bierman (40:55)
Great.
Liz Modugno (41:13)
notes and supervision are very, we have a uniform way of doing a lot of things. Where, you know, when they get into the therapeutic process, there is some flexibility on how they're working with the clients on their own. But there are a lot of things that we have a handbook, we can refer back to it, everything is in writing. So a lot of times, there are reasons that things are done a certain way. And I can say,
You know, this is already written down and or it's not written down and I have to put it in there. So in the future, this is just the way it is and this is just the way that we operate. And I think that we're being organized and holding that standard right from the beginning is super important.
Jill and I talk about this. Sometimes we get closer with personally, we'll have a connection with a staff member. And then when you have to say the, you know, how things have to be because we are running a business, it's hard because you have to put the business first because, you know, at the end of the day, I have 10 clinicians that they get
They have to get a paycheck and this has to operate. And I have clients that they rely on us. I ran the numbers. We've served over 1,200 clients since we've opened. And we need to make sure that we are operating efficiently. And that's a priority. And sometimes it's really hard when you're telling someone that thinks that you're more friendly. I mean, we are friendly, but.
It's the business at the end of the day that we have to look out for.
Jill Griffin (42:38)
And it's tough because no matter what, I do think there is a component of, you're just making this decision to line your own pockets. that at the end. it's like, well, if you looked at the big picture on like how much we work and how much we do and like XYZ, it's not about that. It's not like that easy of an equation.
Liz Modugno (42:51)
You should see my pocket.
Yeah, I think people
think you're, ⁓ you own a business, so you must be raking in the dough. I'm like, it is hard and it's not the, you're not getting the payout that you think you are, especially when you have all these barriers.
Molly Bierman (43:14)
Well, it's also the risk, right? So you're
taking out a lot of risk and liability to treat and serve a population that already is compromised in some way, right? They're already having their own mental health struggles. So it's not only the personal, you know, it's the personal tax that it takes on, you know, a clinician or a practice owner. But, you know, I think that
Liz Modugno (43:24)
Yeah.
Molly Bierman (43:38)
Over time, what I learned is that individuals that show up with that type of energy or that type of rhetoric, never going to be a healthy individual for the business. And so what I found is that when that comes up, it's just like, Hey, this might be not a good fit and being transparent with people. I've always said, you know, if you do not feel as though your needs are being met. Wonderful.
you can go find another job. Because at the end of the day, this is what I have to offer. There's nothing to really argue on. Like there's obviously little tweaks and changes. And I was just talking with another agency about this. Like when you do say annual staff surveys and a lot of the things that come back can be things that are completely out of your control. You're never going to be able to change. We've given some examples like insurance rates going up. We don't have control over that. Right? Like, you know, they are what they are.
Liz Modugno (44:01)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yes.
Jill Griffin (44:23)
The insurance premiums, like.
Liz Modugno (44:25)
Yeah.
Molly Bierman (44:28)
But there are other little changes that can be really helpful for staff that go a long way, know, whether that's, team lunch, you know, once a quarter, some sort of networking event, And so as we start to,
Liz Modugno (44:39)
Yeah.
Molly Bierman (44:43)
unravel some of those areas, hopefully that props the staff up to feel like, you're being attentive, but also that some of the things that are non-negotiable will always stay non-negotiable. That's meeting the expectations of X, and Z as it was laid out in your job description upon hire.
Liz Modugno (44:53)
Yes.
Yeah,
yeah, 100%.
Jill Griffin (45:03)
We had an advantage working in agency. And I know that I've worked with people in consulting jobs, people who have called me for mentorship over the years. And you talk about running an ethical business and you answer the question, you say, well, like you have to have a handbook for this reason. You have to have policy and procedures for this reason. Well, I don't want to spend my time doing that. That seems like a lot. Well, you know, it's a lot when you don't have these things and then all hell breaks loose because.
Now you have the staff doing all different things. As tedious as some of these tasks are that we do administratively, it does make it easier. And I think that's one of the benefits of working in an agency because you see why that's useful. What's something that you've had to unlearn as a business owner?
Liz Modugno (45:39)
Yeah.
That's a tough question. And I've had to unlearn.
as a business owner. think the thing that...
that comes to mind.
like I said before, as a business owner, support your staff in a different way than your clients. And that could be really You could be friendly with people, but you still have to be their boss.
You could be supportive, but
those, you know, setting those boundaries and adhering to them. You know, when somebody's asking you, ⁓ can you do this or that? And going back to, no, are the rules and it's the same for everyone. And it's out of my hands because this is how we operate. can be emotionally difficult.
And that's when I call that's when I call Jill I'm like, ⁓ like today was a tough day
Molly Bierman (46:35)
I think those boundaries...
Jill Griffin (46:35)
She'll be like, what
do you think I should do? I'm like, nope, cut it off. We're, no, absolutely not.
Liz Modugno (46:38)
⁓ yeah, is like,
Jill's like, no, no, don't do that. And I'm like, not even a little bit. And she's like, no, no, don't. And I'm like, okay. So I do this like, I'm Jill, like, let me tap into my Jill Griffin side. And I'm like, no. So I just, I already know what Jill is going to say. I just need that pep talk sometimes.
Molly Bierman (46:59)
It's so
interesting because I feel like on the flip side, a lot of clinicians have ⁓ trouble holding boundaries with clients. Okay. And, ⁓ well, not even that. Like they're just not willing to tell them the hard truth sometimes that they, you know, kind of skirt around some of the challenges.
Jill Griffin (47:09)
appropriate ones?
Molly Bierman (47:18)
And I feel as though, you the reason why Liz has been always, you've been always been very well respected, especially the behavioral health space is because you haven't shied away from saying that to clients. So it's interesting to me that you say you struggle a little bit on the employee side because I feel like most people struggle with the opposite, with the client side.
Liz Modugno (47:29)
Yeah.
Jill Griffin (47:37)
It's sometimes clients
so too. Because she cares, she'll be like, I should do it for this one client. Liz, if you don't want to do it for all of them, don't do it for one.
Liz Modugno (47:39)
Yeah, yeah.
She's like, you're not going to feel good about this in six months. Think about future you. I'm like, you're right. You're right. I've already played this conversation in my head before I called Jill three times. like, I know what she's going to say. You could just tell yourself this. like, want to hear Jill.
Jill Griffin (47:50)
Nope, nope.
Well, I also, you know, one of the things that just came to mind when you said that, Molly, is something that my staff is struggling with with boundaries, which is a late cancellation fee, which seems like it's like this business thing that ends up being a clinical thing. Because if people don't have skin in the game, they're just not, if they know that you're always going to waive the cancellation fee, then they're always going to cancel on you when therapy becomes a thing that they don't want to do.
Liz Modugno (48:12)
yeah.
Jill Griffin (48:28)
Which let's be honest, is most of the time when you're doing tough work with clients, especially when it starts getting nice outside. People are like, ⁓ I'd rather go and do the softball game or the this or the that than therapy. And so we had to have this really real conversation with the staff and a staff person had brought up that they didn't feel like it was ethical to charge a late fee. And so we had to have an entire conversation about how this is actually a boundary and how
your cancellation rate is higher than the rest of the staff and like how that correlates.
Molly Bierman (49:00)
Yeah, you know, but this is also, know, when you come from, you know, an agency, you learn that, right? So like, if somebody comes in for residential treatment and they stay for a week, you're, you best believe on that guarantor paperwork. It states no refunds if you leave against staff advice or medical advice. I mean, and again, that's a blanket statement and a lot of people would maybe argue that, but the reality is, is that there has to be
some buy-in, obviously you can't bill insurance for claims that did not take place or anything like that, but when you're in, you know, in a setting where you have had to hold those boundaries and those, those leverage pieces have worked, especially with a population who has sometimes a mental health condition or a substance use disorder that tells them they don't have one, right? I just did a training this week with a group of staff and case managers. And I said, guys, you have to remember that
Addiction is the only disease that we know of that you can have it, but it tells you that you don't. Okay, that doesn't happen with cancer. That doesn't happen with diabetes. doesn't happen with, you Well, that's okay. So mental health, exactly. again, so again, really, really working through some of those how the how the clinical and the business
Liz Modugno (50:00)
Mm-hmm.
Jill Griffin (50:05)
It also happens with psychosis too.
Liz Modugno (50:09)
and personality disorders.
Jill Griffin (50:10)
Yeah, I mean...
Molly Bierman (50:18)
meet is really by way of education. And sometimes that is feels monotonous for somebody like who sits in our seat because we've already lived this and we're like, no, this is the way, you know, but sometimes you have to be like, come on over here. This is the way I'm going to show you how. And sometimes I can feel draining, but that's also the part of the business side and the business.
Liz Modugno (50:39)
Yeah,
I also feel like what you're saying, people who've been in the agency world view work a little bit different. also find that the staff, like my older staff, don't question. They just work and they know the rules and they do what they need to do. It makes sense to them, you know? And I think that sometimes
Jill Griffin (50:58)
make sense to them.
Liz Modugno (51:03)
you know, there's questions that I get from newer staff or people who are just newer in the field. Because like I said before, a lot of people are coming right into private practice. They're not doing the homeless shelter and the case management and all of those other things that we were doing for such a long time. That it makes it, it makes it like you're right. I'm thinking about like what Jill said, missed appointment fees. We do missed appointment fees across the board. If they
call and they say, hey, this was a one time thing. This isn't a client that's done it frequently. will guess we will waive a fee once. But I still charge them the first time because they need to know that this is what happens in the future. The other thing is, you know, thinking about staff, it's like the time cards and like
how they're utilizing their time. What is... Yeah.
Molly Bierman (51:52)
time analysis, everyone should
be on one. Okay. I had an old clinical director who taught me that, especially with staff who would come into my office and they would say, I don't have enough time. Okay, great. I want you to mark down every 30 minutes what you're doing in your eight and a half hour a day for one week. And you let, it's a good hack. And you come back to me with that. We'll review it next week in supervision and we'll talk about what areas you are struggling with.
Liz Modugno (51:54)
Okay. Yeah.
that's good.
Molly Bierman (52:17)
And I can tell you more times than not, they came back and they were like, I actually have more time than I thought I did. It's anxiety, it's nerves. It's, you know, I feel all this pressure and then the pressure is paralyzing me to actually do the work, right? So I've actually never had somebody who've come back and said, we're in efficiency, right? And there's a lot of ways that, listen, we live in a world of AI now. I mean, every EHR has built in, you know,
Jill Griffin (52:18)
Yeah, bit...
But they're just inefficient.
Molly Bierman (52:43)
AI features to be able to not have to, you don't even have to write your own notes anymore.
Jill Griffin (52:47)
If you're taking an hour to do a treatment plan or a note, we need to talk because that's insane. We should not be spending this much time. So we need to talk about that. All right, I want to do some rapid fire questions. Keep you on your toes, Liz. You got to keep you on your toes. What is the most misunderstood thing about trauma?
Liz Modugno (52:47)
I know.
Molly Bierman (52:59)
Yes, my favorite part.
Liz Modugno (53:06)
that it has to be a big event that has happened to you. could be smaller events in your life that have accumulated that, maybe other people don't see it as big events, but subjectively they have shaped and defined how you view the world.
Jill Griffin (53:23)
What is a hard truth that clients avoid?
Liz Modugno (53:25)
Ooh, hard truth that clients avoid.
the severity of their symptoms and the consequences their addiction or mental health have caused in their life.
Jill Griffin (53:37)
was thinking, biggest hard truth clients avoid is how marijuana is actually addictive. That was in my head because I had this whole conversation this week about it and I was like, no, it's actually a thing.
Molly Bierman (53:46)
I don't like it.
Mine was how unhealthy their family system actually is.
Jill Griffin (53:55)
⁓ boy.
Liz Modugno (53:55)
Yeah
Molly Bierman (53:56)
because I think a lot of people come in really well protected around that, you know? And not necessarily in a way that you can't be in community with your family, but that there are areas that probably could be improved, you know?
Jill Griffin (54:07)
What is the biggest thing that keeps people stuck?
Liz Modugno (54:09)
Hmm. Usually themselves. their, their fears of what their life could like look like if they work on their issues. Sometimes they think it could be worse. Or they don't know what it's going to be like. So they
don't work on it as hard as they could. I think like you and I know, both of you know, there's different parts that people bring to the table in therapy. So sometimes there's a belief instilled in one part of us that we can't shake in order to see the other parts of ourselves. So I think that's it.
Jill Griffin (54:45)
Can you heal without doing the hard work?
Liz Modugno (54:47)
No, absolutely not. I think that you have to do some kind of hard work and it doesn't have to be therapy. You know, don't have to see a therapist once a week. There's different ways to do work and that goes for, you know, I'm a proponent of EMDR because I've seen it work and I've seen how it helps, but have other people resolved trauma in other ways? Of course, but it's usually not easy. It's hard work.
Jill Griffin (55:10)
Where do therapists get it wrong?
Liz Modugno (55:13)
usually on their time card. ⁓ therapists get it wrong. I think therapists get,
Molly Bierman (55:20)
Good.
Liz Modugno (55:25)
Sometimes they're just too, too textbook. And I think there's a human factor to also like the one thing I'm thinking of too is like when I interview therapists, the thing it's not that they get it wrong here, but they all have the same answer. know, what's your biggest strength of, know, why, why'd you be a therapist? What qualities do you have? And what's the number one thing that everybody says?
Molly Bierman (55:50)
Compassion. Yeah.
Liz Modugno (55:51)
Empathy, I'm so empathetic.
And I'm like, okay, you need other things too. Like, so I think.
Molly Bierman (55:57)
And the transference, right? Like, what you think a client should be working on may not be what the client needs to work on right now, you know?
Liz Modugno (56:02)
Yeah. I've had
one person I've interviewed in the last, like I've interviewed so many people, one person who didn't say empathy and I liked them. I was like, this is different. I can't remember, but it was good. It was like, I was like, that that's different and it's appropriate. So.
Molly Bierman (56:12)
Perfect, you're hired.
Jill Griffin (56:13)
What did they say?
You know, what's the question for me during interviews and people when you're like, tell me why you got into this field. Well, I wanted to help people. Okay. Well, every, everyone, 99 % of people say it. It's like, okay, but why else? Like this isn't, cause you, like that only brings you so far. Usually we have our own story or a story of somebody else's and that's why we're in it. And, and I get that, but I don't know. I don't think it's all it's cracked up to be too on the other side of it. Like when we're in the work.
Liz Modugno (56:28)
yeah, you and everybody else.
Yeah, think that it's not everybody. ⁓ gosh, I have like all the answers now for the questions you asked me before. I think that piggybacking off of that, one thing that gets me is that everyone wants to be a therapist now. And I think that
Jill Griffin (57:06)
Maybe they need to go to therapy.
Liz Modugno (57:08)
I think that it's, you know, and I, it's okay. Like if, if you're really called to this, but I don't think everyone approaches therapy the same way. And I think that like Jill and I talked to years ago and Jill was teaching. I think that there's a, there's like a money, like the universities are, are pulling people in to become therapists and sometimes they're graduating and they haven't done
any work and they really can't empathize with a homeless person who has an addiction because they haven't ever worked with that person. And I think that's what makes it hard is that when you're a therapist or you're seeking a therapist, you don't always know if your therapist has done the work, but internally, therapists should be questioning, have I done the work?
to be able to meet someone else who's in a really tough space and that counter-transference towards them. Can I either work on it with somebody if it comes up or have I done enough work to be where I'm at today? And that's when you're supervising staff, you start to see what kind of work may need to be done still because it's coming out in therapy.
Jill Griffin (58:16)
That's why I love Liz
Molly Bierman (58:18)
What is, so at the end of every episode, this has been amazing. I feel like we could talk for hours. One, one of the ways that we end every episode is that we ask our guests to give a permission slip to the listeners. So if there's one area that you would give permission to our listeners, what would it be?
Liz Modugno (58:34)
Ugh, permission to...
to try, even though it's hard, just to try hard things.
Molly Bierman (58:42)
Amazing. Such good feedback.