When People Leave: Leading Through Change Without Losing Your Culture
Episode 44 with Jill Griffin & Molly Bierman
In this episode of No Permission Necessary, Jill and Molly explore how leaders can navigate periods of transition when team dynamics are shifting and employees move on.
Drawing from their own experiences with staffing changes, they discuss the importance of maintaining stability, communicating clearly, and responding thoughtfully rather than reactively. The conversation highlights how leadership requires a balance of empathy and accountability, especially when emotions, expectations, and relationships intersect in the workplace.
They also unpack how miscommunication and unspoken needs can create tension, and why creating a sense of safety and transparency within a team is critical during times of change.
This episode offers a practical and grounded perspective on leadership, workplace transitions, and building a culture that can adapt without losing its foundation.
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Jill Griffin (00:00)
How trauma-informed and client-centered is it to fire a therapist and allow no closure with their clients?
zero.
Welcome back to a new episode. I feel like, I don't know, it seems like we're announcing this every other episode, but we are in Mercury retrograde once again here. And the only positive to what's happening in the world, I guess, and the planets is that
Molly Bierman (00:19)
Mm-hmm.
Jill Griffin (00:38)
It seems like we're coming out of a real heavy period. I don't, can't tell you the specifics, but I've read some stuff. It has to do with Jupiter. I'm not sure exactly guys, but March 20th seems to be, maybe it's a new moon. We're supposed to have new beginnings, but I've started feeling that this week and I just want to talk about the shift. We, have come out of a season. What let's see, maybe the past six or seven months.
of lot of staffing changes at one of my businesses. Lots of staffing changes in multiple roles, like the administrative role, the clinical roles, the just like very like key pieces.
Molly Bierman (01:07)
Thank you.
Jill Griffin (01:15)
And it kind of came to a head last week where I had a non-reaction to this. My right-hand person a big reaction and we had a major misunderstanding in the moment of when it was happening of like what her reaction was actually about. And she had made a comment to me at one point once we finally sat down and kind of discussed a pathway forward of like,
Molly Bierman (01:22)
Mm-hmm.
Jill Griffin (01:39)
You don't ever seem to really have a reaction when somebody leaves. And we kind of had to talk that through because here's the thing. When you're the person
Your reaction has to be right size, depending on who you're presenting that to. You have an entire team, you have a company. I I think about these large organizations when they have mass layoffs and how dysregulating that is to a large company. I'm talking on a much smaller scale because we are mainly talking about small businesses here, but I think
Molly Bierman (01:55)
Yeah, sure.
Jill Griffin (02:12)
that how an organization and leadership presents in those moments when there are staffing changes, when people leave, whether that's voluntarily or involuntarily, and how you message that is really important. And I've actually had some conversations with other leaders over the last couple of months. I've also had some conversations with people who they moved from their place of work and ⁓
the owner immediately terminated them, which I think happens a lot in this field. And I think there's a lot of fear. However, if we look at all this verbiage that we use, right? Client centered, evidence-based practice, all this stuff, when we're talking about therapy, it's like how trauma informed. That one is the one I have the pet peeve about, trauma informed lately.
Molly Bierman (02:40)
yeah.
Jill Griffin (02:59)
How trauma-informed and client-centered is it to fire a therapist and allow no closure with their clients?
zero.
Molly Bierman (03:06)
So I have a couple months on
this. Cause I feel like I've been on both sides and I don't, I feel like there is a path forward for every situation and sometimes it looks different, but general.
Jill Griffin (03:17)
It looks different a
lot of times. It looks different a lot of times depending on the situation.
Molly Bierman (03:20)
Right,
yes, but general school of thought for me, and this is just based on my experience, I think I was in a position where I used to want to hold on to people really tightly. I know I did. And I felt if I didn't have them, what it would look like to fill their position, backfill their position, find someone that knew the programming and really what that stemmed from.
was lack of being well-oiled. And so when you're in an organization that maybe has flown by the seat of their pants a bit on policies, training modules, just proper supervision at large, it is going to be that much harder to backfill a position. So some of the ways that I saw that impact me early on in my career was that a lot of the organization that I was with really
kind of grew organically, right? It was clients who graduated the program and then they decided that they wanted to stay a part of the program. So they had their own personal experience and then they were able to bring that into their professional experience. So as those individuals start to gain their own momentum and really start to figure out, okay, this is where I wanna go with my career and it's not necessarily this, this was like a stepping stone like it is for many, that's where I would be, you know,
kind of gripping my chair or clutching my fist because I was nervous about what that looks like without that person there. As I have evolved and as I have been through so many different employees, so many different directors, so much mid-level management, and really walked through that over this last decade, what I will say is that I want genuinely for
the employee to do what is ever best for their family and for their life. And if that means working in the organization that I'm a part of leading or managing is no longer aligned with that, I do not want them working for us. And the reason being is because there is always going to be a misalignment and I cannot change that. There's things that I can change. I can supervise.
in a different way. can offer different benefits. can create team meetings. I can do so many different things, but I cannot give an employee the passion to work for the organization. Not transferable. My opinion.
Jill Griffin (05:47)
Well,
one, so one of the things that we have started doing recently is starting to do some exit interviews when people are leaving. You know, I think, I think that the the bottom line is, is that there was no trend, right, in people leaving. There were
Molly Bierman (05:56)
Those are always fun.
Jill Griffin (06:06)
there was nothing we could point to. And we did have a transparent meeting with staff because it's just unsettling. Like if they feel like they don't get the whole story, which the reality is you can't tell the whole story sometimes. It's not my story to tell why somebody's leaving sometimes. It's not appropriate, especially in certain circumstances, but we were transparent enough around
how tough it's been on us in terms of backfilling these positions, finding the right fit, what that looks like, how we're going about it. And also just sharing like, what's the roadmap for the future? And soliciting feedback of like, do we need to support you in a different way? Open the door for communication and questions. To me, it's always been about maintaining.
a feeling of safety and security with the staff. Because when you think about when there's people, I can remember being in an agency setting, all of a sudden this person's gone, you get the email, effective today, blah, blah, blah, is no longer employed. And you talk about like that gossip and everyone starts talking, what happened? Ooh, I heard this, I heard that. And then there's no other communication. Maybe you ask your supervisor if the culture is...
you know, able to support that type of questioning, right? You might say like, Hey, what happened to so and so? I can't talk about it. Okay, well, that's going to create some sort of like fear. And the fear is my job might not be safe, which goes back to like a security feeling like is, is my paycheck safe? Like, can I support my family? Am I going to be next? People, don't want people having that, that thought process.
Molly Bierman (07:31)
Thank you.
Yeah, I agree with that and I also think that the general consensus that I have in our space is that
I'm gonna probably catch some flack for this, but I think that people are just too emotional. It's a job! Just come in and do your job. And if you are doing your job, then you probably have job security. But if you're not doing your job and you're busy in other arenas, you should probably be worried about your job.
Jill Griffin (08:06)
So I agree. And I think part of my non reaction that I talked about in the beginning was like, I also am kind of right sized and thinking like, I'm probably not the last stop. If you look at the statistics and I don't have it in front of me, but we aren't in the sixties and seventies anymore when people took a job and they retired from that job 30 years later. That is not the job market we are in right now. If somebody stays with you,
Molly Bierman (08:13)
Come on!
Right, right, right.
Jill Griffin (08:33)
five plus years, I think that's actually on the high end of longevity in a position. You can fact check me on that, I, because, because it is short, people leave for better benefits, especially insurance right now. People leave for higher pay, even if all things considered, the higher pay doesn't actually mean higher pay because
Molly Bierman (08:40)
I'm looking, I want to see what the average length is right now.
This is great.
New research finds Gen Z's average job stint is 1.1 years.
Jill Griffin (08:59)
Okay, so I am thriving with how many people have been with me for as long as they have, right? And so.
Molly Bierman (09:06)
Early
career professionals should embrace a two to three year tenure for skill development while building at least one anchor tenure of three to five years by their early thirties, but they're not. They're not. They're not.
Jill Griffin (09:12)
You're not.
They're not.
And listen, I always remember that comment that my supervisor had said to me about me taking his job. I want the people that I am developing underneath me to go on to do something more if they want to. Take my job. Go open up some shop somewhere.
Molly Bierman (09:28)
Yeah.
Great, totally.
Jill Griffin (09:38)
I don't want to limit people. Like that's not the business that I am in. I would like to be a part of your story and your journey. And I might not be the last place in your journey. like, guess I'm just not, yeah. I guess I'm just not like fearful. Now, now on the other side of that is does it create more work? Yes. What has come out of it though? And why I mentioned in the beginning this like,
Molly Bierman (09:49)
likely not at our age, likely not the last place.
Yeah.
Jill Griffin (10:03)
new beginning and turning over a new leaf is that one, I've had a couple organics, new employees. We got some offer letters out this past week, really excited about that. And the best staff that I've have have come to me organically typically. I'm not advertising that I'm hiring, I am about to. So if you're in the Connecticut area and you'd like to work in a clinical position, I'm not above putting this out there. We are hiring at Inspire Recovery.
but I think this period of time really showed that having a pause and like you said, looking at the systems and are the systems working? Do we have the right positions? Are we hiring for the right position? Like it really pause so we can have these strategy sessions and conversations and also try some things out over the past six months of like, this is working. This is not, we need to move this and
I feel really good about the structure we came up with so that we can continue to grow because we have like such a good team environment. I, I don't know. I look at all of the staff that I've supervised and other jobs that I've had throughout my career that I'm still in touch with that still will reach out to me. I mean, I have staff that have followed me here, but then I also have
Molly Bierman (11:11)
Or come back. I mean, how many? Right. Right.
Jill Griffin (11:19)
I have a handful of people that I don't talk to them all the time, but they will reach out to me with career advice. They will reach out to me. mean, I am still, think, a mentor in their minds. Like, still have those relationships. And I think that we've talked about how relationships change when people leave, whether they've worked for you or you've employed them or whatever. And I think...
We should all be mature enough to be able to continue those relationships past employment and being a coworker.
Molly Bierman (11:47)
Some people take it very...
Jill Griffin (11:49)
It's not about you!
Molly Bierman (11:50)
Some people take it very emotionally. was literally just talking to somebody about this this week and I just, you know, I simply said individual is going to do what's best for Period. That's And it's great. And I would hope that you're also doing that, right? Or that I'm also doing that. And if it's not the right fit for me, then I will also be taking advantage of doing something different. But this whole idea of, I think there's this,
Jill Griffin (12:00)
And that looks different in every season.
Molly Bierman (12:15)
large theme of the loyalty piece. And that I think also gets a little bit mixed and blended with when someone has both a professional and personal relationship with their staff, right? Because then you feel like, this person should be loyal to me.
Jill Griffin (12:30)
I also think that happens more in our field and with therapists in general. I've seen, I think there's been a bigger trend of therapy practices closing over this last, I think the COVID boomer bust has kind of, we're on the other side of that now, six years later or five years later, whatever. people, businesses are closing because you've put other people first before the business. You wanted to make sure these people have what they wanted. They asked for X amount of money, you gave it to them.
Now you realize I can't support a business with this pay structure or this model, or I've never held these people accountable. I want them to like me. I don't want to, I don't want to rock the boat because then they'll leave. And what if they leave that, you know, well, that's not how you run a business. you cannot run a business from an emotional decision. And there's going to be points where, yeah, you're going to be in a little bit of a, you might need to pivot.
Molly Bierman (13:11)
then they'll
And I think also figuring out this is something that I think is very impactful and hopefully somebody will take this with them. If you are feeling like you need reassurance on a personal level and you have a blended relationship with somebody in your work, right? Whether it's a friendship or relationship, whatever it looks like. If you are feeling like you need personal support, then you need to vocalize that. Don't expect someone
who also may be your employer and or otherwise.
to read your mind. So if you feel like you need personal support and you're walking into meeting with your supervisor or meeting with leadership and there's been a long standing relationship there and you really feel like you're not getting something, that is up to the individual to say, hey, I don't feel like I'm receiving this and I just wanna put it out there. Be willing to have the hard conversation and then if the expectation is let down and you're not met with that type of support that you need, then you know.
But don't walk away thinking like somebody should have read your mind.
Jill Griffin (14:21)
My experience with that is people wait until it's too late to attempt to have that conversation and the resentment grows to a level of now I can no longer be in relationship with you because they've already made up a storyline of how you haven't supported them. maybe we didn't know that you needed the support in that way, or maybe we didn't know that we weren't supported. So yeah, I...
I feel very balanced in my approach with people I have maintained friendships with versus maybe been an employer supervisor with them or vice versa. But I agree, do need to have those moments where it's like, I'm taking this hat off and I'm putting this hat on or I need XYZ and people can't toe that line. think they will say they don't expect special treatment, but when you behave in a certain way and expect to not be held accountable, you are expecting special treatment.
Molly Bierman (14:58)
Yeah.
Jill Griffin (15:12)
based on a friendship. And you and I, we're not the ones for that.
Molly Bierman (15:17)
just you know it it to me just feels like a disservice too because I've worked with friends I've worked for friends I've worked in relationship with my partner I mean
there needs to sometimes be a line where this is a harder conversation and it is going to be hard because there are mixed relationships in the room and there still needs to be a desired outcome of where we need to get to. So how are we going to do that? And so it has been a bit of a dance, but I also think when you lead with principles and what I mean by that is when you lead with, I know it's kind of cliche to say because I think a lot of people say it, but when you lead with
a level of integrity and clarity about where you are, then that shows up in those conversations. If I'm making myself want to not upset the friendship or this or that, and I'm kind of like shifting and moving and not making eye contact and the conversation's uncomfortable, it's not gonna be received. If I can go in and say, hey, I really need...
x, and z from you. I know it's going to be hard and I know you're going through x, and z, but I still need these deliverables.
It is what it is.
Jill Griffin (16:24)
Two things can be true. You can be supportive and empathetic of somebody's personal situation and also hold accountability because on the other flip side, it's up to that person to really express what they need and want. So I guess I'm hoping that the takeaway for people listening, because this has come up with myself, but with other people, you know, if you have people leaving your organization, first, if there's serial,
Molly Bierman (16:27)
Mm-hmm.
Jill Griffin (16:51)
people serially leaving, have to look at, know, is there something going on internally that we need to look at, right? You need to really that moment of conversation with leadership team around what's going on, why are people leaving? Have a pulse on your staff. But also, you know, we're celebrating some of the people leaving. We get to model also the really positive goodbyes. And I think it's important to do that.
you know, when you're ending a therapeutic relationship with them. I also think that's really important to do when somebody's leaving your organization, like celebrate that they're going on to do something that's better for them in this season of their life. And we're not gonna, we're not gonna shun them. We want them to remember, you know, and give them the opportunity to, this was a learning place for them and we supported them. And I think how you,
have somebody leave your organization stays with them. I will never forget leaving a job. My boss never said bye to me before I left.
Molly Bierman (17:48)
It's aggressive.
Jill Griffin (17:48)
of
avoided me and never said bye. And that, mean, that is the extreme example, but like, you know, if somebody gave notice, what? Yeah.
Molly Bierman (17:51)
It's a gross.
I still don't think we always have a party. Like, I don't
think we need to have a party either. There's a happy video.
Jill Griffin (18:01)
No, it's our,
well, we're already having a luncheon for our staff this month because it's social work month for all of those celebrating.
Molly Bierman (18:09)
Great.
I love that. There's a month for everything. So that's the ways we can celebrate. If you are confused on how to celebrate your staff, just look up. I felt like every day of every month we were celebrating something in agency.
Jill Griffin (18:24)
We're not going that far, but we're just weaving it into an already planned celebration. But also even still, doesn't need, you you have it in case review, let the employees say some things. Like there were some very nice words said in one of our rounds meeting this week by staff. And I think it's just like really important for other staff to hear that and like that we're not just ignoring it. Like this person's leaving and like, ⁓ yeah. Yeah. So.
Molly Bierman (18:29)
See you.
Yeah, of course.
Permission to acknowledge, also permission to...
permission to acknowledge and permission to.
permission to be at
Jill Griffin (18:56)
Get it together!
Molly Bierman (18:58)
Permission
to seek outside support, if needed.
Jill Griffin (19:01)
That is a wide range permission slip on a variety of issues. We're just saying really get the help you need.
Molly Bierman (19:08)
Get the help you need. permission to get it together. I think that one's the best.
Jill Griffin (19:12)
It's
2026. There's no stigma in getting help. Okay, everyone needs to get it together.
Molly Bierman (19:17)
That was so good. Until next time, guys. Bye-bye.
Jill Griffin (19:18)
See ya!
