You Don’t Get a Vote: Boundaries, Burnout, and Being the Bad Guy

Episode 34 with Jill Griffin & Molly Bierman

If you want it to feel a little sharper and more distinct:

In this episode of No Permission Necessary, Molly Bierman and Jill Griffin unpack a hard truth of leadership: not everyone gets a vote in your decisions.

They examine how burnout builds when we confuse being needed with being responsible, why over-explaining often signals discomfort rather than clarity, and how emotional labor quietly drains leaders in both work and family systems. This conversation moves beyond surface-level boundary talk and into the deeper work of tolerating discomfort, protecting energy, and redefining what healthy authority looks like.

For women in leadership, caregivers, and professionals navigating change, this episode reframes boundaries as a discipline rather than a defense.

• TRANSCRIPTION

  Molly Bierman (00:00)

  That's probably why I sounded so bad because my mic was turned around.

  Jill Griffin (00:05)

  ⁓ boy. ⁓ Okay, well, welcome to No Permission Necessary, the podcast where we talk about running businesses by the skin of our teeth some weeks, and this has been one of those weeks for me at least, so we're just going to roll with it. I mean, if you don't question your life choices at least sometime in the month as an entrepreneur, I feel like you're just not doing it right. I don't know.

  Molly Bierman (00:26)

  I'm in agreement. I'm just here because honestly I'm here because I'm scared of Jill this week.

  Jill Griffin (00:32)

  Do you wanna elaborate? Do you wanna?

  Molly Bierman (00:36)

  I feel like Jill is in one of those modes and it takes one to know one where...

  you just should not cross her this week. Like, and if you have, thoughts and prayers. Thoughts and prayers.

  Jill Griffin (00:49)

  I mean, kind of feel like it goes in line with what we were going to talk about today, which is, you know, what it looks like having boundaries and sometimes you're seen as the bad guy.

  Molly Bierman (01:00)

  Yeah, I would agree with that.

  Jill Griffin (01:01)

  Right?

  Molly Bierman (01:02)

  Well, we're gonna talk about that today.

  Jill Griffin (01:02)

  Why?

  Okay, well just to line up my wrath that I guess I'm on a warpath this week, which I don't feel like I am, I just, my energy container is very low because I've been sick for a week. And so I feel like they're...

  Molly Bierman (01:23)

  Mm-hmm

  Yes.

  Jill Griffin (01:29)

  boundaries in this context that we're talking about today is really around like energy management. Like there are times I think seasons, whether it's as a parent or we have heavy stuff going on parent wise, you know, scheduling, whatever, or just our own bodies, hormonally as a mother, especially, right? Postpartum, all this stuff and or changes in our businesses where like our energy is only so much, our bandwidth is only so much and we need to pick and choose

  Molly Bierman (01:54)

  Mm-hmm.

  Jill Griffin (01:56)

  how we're going to be spending our emotional and mental energy. And this week, the first three days of the week, I didn't have it in me. I could only do exactly as much as I was required to do.

  Molly Bierman (02:08)

  You know, I think that that's something that we all usually have to kind of take a look at, you know, whether or not we are in a place of production or rest. It's kind of like the two that we're in, you know? I don't feel like there's a middle ground, at least for me. I'm either full tilt or I am resting.

  I feel like you're kind of the same.

  Jill Griffin (02:27)

  I literally,

  Molly Bierman (02:27)

  So the topic of this week's episode guys is you don't get a vote. Boundaries, burnout, and being the bad guy. And really most of what we mean by that is what happens when we stop asking for permission from staff, family, or clients and really start making decisions that universally may not be liked but essentially need to be accepted. And so I think that's a really big piece kind of dovetailing off of a previous episode is can you make hard decisions?

  Can you get a little bit comfortable in an uncomfortable situation such as hiring and firing, talking about financials? Where do you stand when it comes to making those hard decisions that may not always land in a way that feels warm and fuzzy for your staff? Or for your family or for your children and their friends, right? So I was listening to someone talk a little bit yesterday about

  you know, the decisions they made even with their child growing up, you know, and making decisions that feel hard. I have a mom who has been really steadfast on the no cell phone, you know, the no cell phone for her child. And her child is in sixth grade and every single child in her grade that she associates with and hangs out with has a phone.

  And we were talking through, you know, when you have to stand in your values and make that decision, even though it's not going to land well, even though it's going to feel uncomfortable, even though she may need to be listening to her daughter beg and plead for her phone over and over and over again, how does she stand tall in the decision that she's made? Because likely she put a lot of effort and thought into why that decision was the best. So that's just one example of ways that you can also apply this not only in your business, but also in your home life.

  and acknowledging some of the things that don't always land and or are really, really, you know, cause friction, you know, in your in whatever system you're in.

  Jill Griffin (04:21)

  Well, and when we talk about, you know, people pleasing and the over explaining around, I think you and I have a similar, we have a similar dispositions where we can be seen as like too much or too direct at some points where we're just like, this is what it is and we're not having a conversation about it. I think that I also lean towards transparency and honesty, right? With whether it's with my team, whether it's with my children.

  I have the same conversations at home around social media and phone. Like these are my bound. This is the boundary. This is I'll explain why, but I'm also not interested or going to welcome a conversation about that every week. We're not going to be getting into the same thing. You're not going to change my mind. I'm not going to change yours unless the research is overwhelmingly different, which I don't see that happening anytime soon. So and they know that right? They respect that boundary because they're not going to get anywhere. But I think if you get

  Where we're being, where some people, leaders, parents, whatever, being too nice, feeling like, ⁓ I want to make sure they understand, I want to make sure that, really what you're saying is, when you're over explaining is, I don't want them to be upset with me. And that goes back to being able to tolerate discomfort, because at the end of the day, sometimes the boundaries that I set, or the policies that I set, or the rules in my home, they're not gonna be welcome.

  by the people that they're affecting. My child does not like the fact that I say no cell phone. They don't like that, but it is what it is. But I'm the parent, so you don't have to like it. This isn't like a dictatorship in our house, but there are certain things that I do for your health and safety that your child brain can't comprehend yet. So you don't get a vote.

  Molly Bierman (05:45)

  Of course not.

  Well, I think

  you also have to, at least for me, think in terms health and safety of the company too. So I just got back from doing a training with a facility and we had to broach the conversation of how clinical and business need to operate as one in order for the business to thrive. In order for people to earn a paycheck, feel comfortable in their position, be cared for, how do you...

  Jill Griffin (06:04)

  Totally.

  Molly Bierman (06:21)

  meld the two because there's such a gap between people understanding the business. And so when decisions are made, they sometimes feel this sense of whether it is entitlement, rejection, fear, anger, you know, a whole litany of issues and feelings. And so

  What I was really driving home to them is once you can actually accept that both need to coexist, it is a much more fruitful position to be in. Because this idea of kind of pushing back and pushing back and pushing back, especially as an adult, right? As a child and the adolescent brain and the inability to have high executive functioning skills, et cetera.

  Like they're not looking at that. They're looking at more of an emotional response. But as far as an adult, you have the capability, especially in our space, to be able to acknowledge, well, what's it bringing up in you that you can't accept that this is the model, right? And the more you push back, honestly, the ripple effect that occurs when you push back in that way is that it affects your colleagues. It affects...

  the individuals reporting to you. And more importantly, it affects the clients and the families of those that you are treating. You may not think that, you may be looking at me and saying, Molly, there's no way, like I talk about this in the privacy of an office with a colleague, sure. But the energy itself that emulates through that process is significant.

  Jill Griffin (07:56)

  Well, you know why it affects, it ripples out into all those ways is because it contributes to burnout. It contributes to a staff person's inability to feel fulfilled in the role. They get burned out by the work because there's a misalignment. And what it actually is, is your energy leaking all over the place. You are spending your energy rationalizing gossip.

  Molly Bierman (08:08)

  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

  Yeah.

  Jill Griffin (08:21)

  talking about the poor decisions of the owners or your coworkers or your colleagues. What are we doing towards a solution? And so we actually had this meeting this week. I've had a series of various staff exits at one of my businesses and there was some concern with middle management of how the staff was gonna receive it.

  And I think the initial response was that we needed to over explain, we needed to tell them about all the things that we're doing and all this stuff. And I said, whoa, time out, where is this coming from? And where it was coming from was a place of self-centered fear. mean, how am I gonna be perceived? Do people think I'm doing something wrong? Do people think I'm doing something bad? Are we doing something wrong? Are we doing something? And it's like.

  anybody who's worked in an agency setting or even in business cultures, not just in our field, when there's layoffs, when there's a decision that comes from the top down, there's an audit, there's a recoup of funds, now we're reacting, we're sending out all these directives and it gives staff this feeling of being unsettled, what's going on, so then they create their own narratives. I've really tried hard.

  in this space to create trauma-informed businesses. And what I mean by that is that we are providing transparency and honesty as much as staff needs to know, right? There are some things that is for the executive team, is for the ownership, it doesn't need that the details maybe don't need to be out there. But it is important sometimes for the staff doing the work to know the why of why they have to do the work the way we're asking them to do it.

  Because that's trauma-informed, that's letting their nervous system know like, they don't want to just overwork me. They aren't just trying to make profit off me. They're not just, like, there's a reason for this. It's trauma-informed to do the work the way that all these places, whether it's insurance, managed care, the client's families, their supports, like, there's so many people asking from things from us as a business.

  And that trickles down and how do we communicate that with our staff?

  Molly Bierman (10:20)

  Well, I think the direction people understanding the direction of where we're headed also keeps everyone's North star aligned. So mission and mission. We talk about that frequently, but understanding like even company wide updates, because there's also this level if you're in a small to midsize business.

  Jill Griffin (10:28)

  Mission and vision. I mean, yeah.

  Molly Bierman (10:41)

  At times there can be side conversations and sidebars that aren't meant to really harm people, end up not going, the information doesn't end up descending to everyone at the same time. And really what that causes is again, the game of telephone, mixed messaging, et cetera. So, okay. So give us an example.

  Jill Griffin (11:00)

  That happened to me this week at a different business.

  We have this, ⁓ we have an audit, is in any industry, a standard, There's some sort of check and balance with some sort of agency, whether it's OSHA, whether it's in our field, it's insurance companies, it's licensing, the state licensing boards, all those things, right? We check and balances. Fine, I have no problem with that.

  Molly Bierman (11:25)

  Commission.

  Jill Griffin (11:31)

  We go through the internal audit just looking through our stuff. I always tell staff because I feel like I've been part of audits at larger agencies. The top people get all, they're running around, they're scurrying around, they're anxious about it, my God, they're coming on site. Guys, we all know this is gonna happen. We all know at some point somebody's gonna come on site and look at our stuff, number one. Number two, we all know that an insurance company's going to request documents at some point.

  So why are we elevating our nervous systems and getting everyone freaked out about this very common and like expected event? So what happened was there was not alignment on how that was going to be communicated to the staff. So I think unintentionally, some people had knee-jerk reactions to things and started reacting and doing this whole song and dance and getting worried about it. And it's like, guys, is what it's like.

  And I'm not minimizing it to say that like it's not concerned. you're listen, audits can audits bankrupt some companies, especially insurance, clawbacks and all that stuff. And I think going back to being a trauma informed agency, you have to make sure that you're doing things in the right way for the sustainability and profitability of a business to be to continue being a business. Right. But at the same time, you're never going to get 100 percent on any of these audits. It's just not happening.

  Molly Bierman (12:45)

  Mm-hmm. Whoa!

  Jill Griffin (12:51)

  that like otherwise those people don't have jobs.

  Molly Bierman (12:53)

  So I think that, well, number one, shout out to the director of compliance who did my audits on the invasion unit because she was a beast. And she would, I would feel 100 % confident in her. And she's like, you should not go anywhere near the surveyor. And I'm like, I agree. I completely agree.

  Jill Griffin (13:01)

  It's a nightmare.

  Oh, that was

  great advice.

  Molly Bierman (13:17)

  No, it was good advice because there was no need for me to be around her. mean, she had the ability to walk through all the policies. That was her full-time job. If there was something that needed to come from me or executive leadership, she would have asked. 99.9 % of the time, it was crossing our T's, dotting our I's, and we moved on. But that doesn't mean we didn't have corrective action plans and a chart wasn't missing a treatment plan or whatever. Right.

  Jill Griffin (13:39)

  Which is typical. Yeah.

  Molly Bierman (13:42)

  What I will tell you though is that there are a whole host of organizations. The reason why most people feel somewhat nonchalant or at least we may be presenting nonchalant on this topic is because there has been a whole system and foundational structure that has built the business to be able to walk through a survey pretty much unscathed, right?

  Jill Griffin (14:03)

  Yeah.

  Molly Bierman (14:04)

  But I will tell you that the reason why those organizations exist is because that is not all. And there are a good fraction of businesses and facilities that have really practiced unethically, at times illegally. So be cognizant. If you're listening to this and you work in behavioral health and you're a part of an organization.

  look at the audit, you know, look at how the, what the system looks like, check in with your compliance, learn a little bit about the organization in that way. Because once you can understand and see where some of the deficiencies are, you can really start to tell, is this an organization that does align with its mission and vision? That the values that they talk about are actually the values that are occurring inside the facility.

  and that it's not just a business model, right? That they really are melding the two, clinical and business, and it really is for the betterment of our clients and families.

  Jill Griffin (14:59)

  Well, I think this is where nervous system regulation and leadership cross over and it's really important for us in those moments. It was stressful for me this week personally because I was sick. I didn't wanna look through all these charts. I didn't wanna do, but it's time sensitive. I have to step up and do my part, right? So I was feeling anxiety. The difference I guess is,

  being able to regulate, so I'm not projecting that onto the team, and I'm not putting that out there. I'm not spiraling in emails. I'm not, like, we need to make sure that we're all on the same page, because I think when you are in tune with your nervous system reaction, you feel that spike, your heart rate go up, whatever your tells are, right? We all have them. And I think the more that we can understand that and then respond versus react, because then there's a ripple effect through the agency.

  or the business. And I think doing those spot checks of like, we do this in staff meetings, hey, how are you receiving the emails? How are you receiving communication? Where can we make some changes? Because we don't know how some of our communication comes off. A lot of times I just want to get stuff done in the moment, but I had to learn to schedule send in the morning, not be firing off emails at night, or I'm more likely to send one off at four in the morning.

  than 9 p.m. but still I don't know I just think that I Also, was had a really proud moment after we had that mission and vision meeting this week at one of the businesses that like staff spoke up and gave examples of how like we live out our mission and vision and like the example that in the culture and

  Molly Bierman (16:36)

  Mm-hmm.

  Jill Griffin (16:36)

  you know, it was nice to hear because I feel like as leaders, we don't always get that reflected back to us. That like, ⁓ it's working, we're doing it.

  Molly Bierman (16:41)

  How do you feel like?

  How do you feel that at times as women in leadership that we absorb the discomfort, that we hold the discomfort for others? so when you think about, you know, I was able to download with you a little bit before you did the mission and vision and there was, you know, there was also some feedback and some, you know, things that people wanted to air out, right? And how do we manage that? How do we manage other people's discomfort?

  How do we manage other people's complaints, feedback, criticism, constructive criticism? I just feel like that's a good topic to hone in on because that is part of the job.

  Jill Griffin (17:25)

  I mean, part of... So again, what prompted a lot of these conversations with myself and management is these exits. Some were terminations, some were resignations. Either way, when you have a small business and multiple people leave in succession, it's a way to look... Well, you need to look at yourselves, like what's going on. And I think that ultimately I didn't have any response to it.

  Molly Bierman (17:43)

  Yeah, people feel fearful.

  Jill Griffin (17:53)

  myself until management started getting a little spun about it because I was like, well, this is out of our control, you know, but I think those are good opportunities to, you know, and I did send out an email, right? Basically saying that.

  We're not gonna share personal details. We're not gonna get into a tit for tat about like what happened, you know, with each staff member and whatever. But the bottom line is, any time a person has left a business that I've been at, that I've built, they were not in line with the values and the mission and vision. They weren't moving in the same direction. And so, and that doesn't mean that they started out that way. Sometimes they do when we grow apart.

  But when I looked at that meeting that week, we have stuck to our mission and vision from the opening of this business until now. And I think that's something that I'm really proud of because it means that we've been having frequent conversations about the mission and vision because I think it's so easy to get off topic, off your route. But when we talk about those complaints and stuff, I think...

  I hate to say this, and I think it sounds like a broken record, but is it in line with the mission and vision? Is this a personal issue that we need to hash out in clinical supervision? Is it a one-on-one issue? Is it an issue with my management style? Is it an issue with, is it a staffing issue? Is it a policy issue? You have to first define what the problem is. And then what is the right place

  Molly Bierman (19:10)

  Well, I think a lot of...

  Jill Griffin (19:12)

  to have that conversation. And I think, I mean, I put out anonymous surveys for staff to get feedback. I provide, I mean, we have the open door, we have frequent supervision. So like, you also have to provide multiple avenues for staff to give that feedback, because everyone's gonna have a different comfort level with sharing their discomfort or complaint or conflict.

  Molly Bierman (19:32)

  I think that when we are making a hard decision in whatever capacity, that we have to also prep ourselves, at least for me, what I've had to do is prep myself to have those conversations, right? I've had to probably outsource a little bit of support. I've had to tease it out a few times. So that way I deliver it in a way that's direct, that I'm not over defending or over explaining because I've been in those rooms.

  And what happens when we do that is that the message isn't actually received. What happens when I over explain is sometimes people feel like there's an out that maybe there's a workaround. Maybe the decision isn't as firm. Right. They leave confused. Right.

  Jill Griffin (20:10)

  Well, people leave confused. People leave confused. They're like, well,

  what was I supposed to get out of this? Like, it feels un, yeah. direct is kind, clear as kind.

  Molly Bierman (20:18)

  Yeah, I think that, yeah,

  Clear is kind. And I think that probably my most fearful, yet my most proud and confident moment was going into the conversation with the managers of my last company to let them know that we were selling. And I had role-played this out a million ways to Sunday. I had thought about the worst possibilities.

  the greatest possibilities and everything in between. But I knew that I needed to go in there clear, firm, but also empathetic, you know, and caring. Like I really appreciate everything that you guys have worked towards with me side by side. And this is just as much as an emotional roller coaster for me as it will be for you. So I was honest in that way, but it still didn't divert like what was going to be happening. And so

  Jill Griffin (21:10)

  Yeah.

  Molly Bierman (21:12)

  descending that information to them and then also having to support them through the next chain of commands, which was sharing it with the rest of the frontline staff. So I, I, that was a really good opportunity for me to not rescue, not defend and not over explain. And what happened is that people acknowledged and felt, felt that, you know, there were still feelings, right? I wasn't there to take away their feelings around it.

  But I was there to be clear and all that to say, mean, hopefully I don't have to have that heart of a conversation ever again. I feel like, you know, that maybe I will, maybe I won't. I feel like there was a lot of emotion there for me, but I had a lot of time to sit, prep and outsource. And so I would say if there's one piece of advice that I can give is if you are going to make a hard decision in your organization, in your family unit.

  whatever it is, right? Doesn't have to be about business. Then you role play it out a bit, you know, and really make sure that you come clear in your language when you go to deliver.

  Jill Griffin (22:13)

  I saw this quote that talks about, clarity feels harsh to people who benefit from your confusion. I just thought about all of the difficult moments I had coming up as a new supervisor, as a new manager, and the people who really pushed back and had difficulty with my leadership style were the ones who,

  Molly Bierman (22:21)

  So accurate.

  Jill Griffin (22:37)

  they kind of rode on the coattails of confusion. They were like when things weren't clear that they got away with stuff and it was like certain behaviors were okay and once it was, you know, things were pretty clear that you were under functioning in that role and I'm asking you for some accountability, it's like well now you're pushing back and you know, and I think clarity is so important when we're talking about asking somebody to do something.

  Molly Bierman (22:43)

  Yeah.

  I mean, I hope that that's a helpful topic, you know, that this has been a helpful topic for people because I think that when we have a more conscious approach, it really makes it less stressful, you know, it doesn't make it more confusing. And, you know, when I have been misunderstood by staff or by clients or by family or friendships,

  it was because I took the opposite approach, you know, the over explain, the justification, the emotional piece of it, maybe just incongruent messaging altogether, you know, and, also leaning in as more of a peer, right? In the business, in the business sense, you know? So if I'm operating from this peer to peer, it really does also create a rupture.

  to be able to have those hard conversations. So this also is a foundational structure that needs to occur with how are you presenting in your leadership supervisor manager role? Because when you do have to have hard conversations, it's gonna be that much harder if you've been operating as a peer. And I'll give you an example. I had a woman say to me this week that she had done a review with her staff member and I said, okay, great, how'd it go? And she gave me all the ways in which it went well and.

  And I said, well, how has that, you know, how does the review kind of stand up to the actual day-to-day supervision and weekly supervision and monthly supervision? And the response I got was that there really wasn't much. And it's also a reminder that if you're only sitting down with your person, your employee or your staff member or your direct report once a year to do a review.

  and you're not doing what you need to do on the weekly, monthly, bi-monthly basis, it creates a really funky divide to be able to be objective in that sense. So that was just another tidbit that I thought would be helpful.

  Jill Griffin (24:59)

  Yeah, and I guess I would just encourage people that being uncomfortable having a ⁓ difficult conversation or making a difficult decision doesn't mean, you know, it doesn't mean danger. It doesn't mean not to do it. It just means that you might need more support to do it. And you want to make sure that you are really clear on what you're asking and maybe even some clarity for yourself on why it's so uncomfortable for you, you know. But I also feel like

  this is important to say, because I've had these moments a lot in my career, is that sometimes I go out with the best intentions of having a hard conversation or having a meeting with staff or a one-to-one, and it doesn't land. It doesn't come out the way it's supposed to. There was a disconnect, and I've had to come back around and own that. And so I think that...

  You're also allowed to make mistakes, you're allowed to do it wrong, and you're allowed to like model, you know, being human too and coming back and again, not over explaining yourself. I think it's worth us saying, you know what, I don't think I was as clear as I wanted to be. You know, and so I do think that, because I'm just, I just know that if this was me early in my career listening to this conversation, I'm like, I can't do that. Like you don't understand these staff.

  It's like the staff are the same, like the staff problems that I had when I was a new supervisor compared to now, same issues. They're the same issues. I'm just going to tell you that right now, wherever you are in your career, they are the same issues. So it's just my, my ability to handle it and not get spun out about it and be able to like use my resources and do what I have to do so that I'm not burning my own energy over it.

  Molly Bierman (26:18)

  Same issues. Yeah. Don't really want to work that hard. Kind of want to come and go. Yeah. Yeah.

  Jill Griffin (26:39)

  That is the thing that's changed.

  Molly Bierman (26:41)

  Well, what's one boundary you no longer negotiate in terms of your business and in your supervisor role?

  Jill Griffin (26:47)

  I'm very clear with my limits now. And what I mean by that is I'm very clear around communication, my expectations, you know, when to reach out, when not to reach out. Like, in other words, I used to just bleed communication. It was like 24-7 access to me. No one gets that anymore, except maybe my husband and my children.

  pretty much it, but I'm not available to everybody all the time anymore in business. But I have to be disciplined around that boundary.

  Molly Bierman (27:14)

  Yeah, I think probably the one boundary that I don't negotiate anymore, and this is probably a more recent one in the last year and a half or so, is that I I do what's in the best interest of the business, regardless of what people think about it. And what I mean by that is, when it's hard, when it's easy, and everything in between.

  I'm not sacrificing a decision because it's going to make someone feel a little bit more comfortable, right?

  Jill Griffin (27:38)

  Or it's gonna

  be a pain in the ass to carry out, or it's gonna be challenging. Yeah, yeah, totally.

  Molly Bierman (27:42)

  Right. Yeah. I

  do what's in the best interest of the business at a return. And then that I feel like is my responsibility as a business owner, right? That I am doing what's in the best interest of the clients, the families and the contractors that we support. One sentence you stopped explaining.

  Jill Griffin (27:59)

  sentence that I stopped explaining.

  Molly Bierman (28:01)

  Mine is no.

  Jill Griffin (28:02)

  Now.

  Molly Bierman (28:02)

  Yeah, no complete sentence. Don't need to explain it.

  Jill Griffin (28:05)

  Honestly, the first thing that came to mind is I don't have the energy for that right now.

  Molly Bierman (28:11)

  Yeah, so that's, yeah. And you're not explaining why you don't have the energy. It's just like, I don't have the energy. Yeah. Yeah.

  Jill Griffin (28:12)

  Like, no, I don't have the capacity for that. I don't have the energy

  for that. Like, I've learned to use that a lot more over the past couple of years.

  Molly Bierman (28:22)

  My favorite sentence, and I think I've said it a few times on this, on the pod, over the last, you know, some odd months has been, if it's not a full body, yes, it's a no.

  Jill Griffin (28:31)

  It's a hell no. Because any time, any time that I have compromised that and like, I don't know, I don't know, and then I say yes anyway, it has, it has always ended badly.

  Molly Bierman (28:32)

  So I'm not explaining that.

  Great. So, as we're trying to stay warm out here, guys, let's give you a nice little warm permission slip. It's a whopping 12 degrees out.

  Jill Griffin (28:42)

  Yeah.

  Molly Bierman (28:50)

  So let's warm up the episode.

  Jill Griffin (28:50)

  think it's like zero degrees

  You do not need permission to protect your energy.

  Molly Bierman (28:55)

  Mmm, I love that one. We're so appreciative of you guys. Please give us a like, give us a follow, follow us on YouTube, Instagram, all the socials. And we look forward to hearing from you. Any podcast, episode, recommendations, interviews you want to hear, we're open to it all and we look forward to hearing from you. We'll see you next time.