Boundaries, Mentorship, and the Realities of Leadership with Carrie Hunnicutt

Aug 26

Episode 9 with Carrie Hunnicutt

What does it really take to lead with integrity in a field where the stakes are people’s lives? In this episode of No Permission Necessary, we sit down with Carrie Hunnicutt, nationally recognized behavioral health leader, mentor, and longtime friend to talk about the lessons that come with 25+ years in leadership.

From finding her first mentor in the early days of her career to navigating the ethical dilemmas of growth, acquisitions, and high-pressure roles, Carrie shares what it means to balance resilience with vulnerability, clarity with compassion, and ambition with family life.

Together, we dig into the personal toll of leadership, why boundaries matter, and how women can show up in spaces that often expect them to be either “too much” or “not enough.” This is a raw, inspiring conversation about mentorship, values-driven leadership, and learning to make the hard calls.

Welcome back to No Permission Necessary. I am thrilled to be having one of my nearest and dearest on our podcast today to talk about her experience. So I'm gonna give her the proper intro and read a little bit about her background and tell you a little bit about the relationship and we'll get into it.
Carrie Honeycutt is a nationally recognized leader in behavioral health with over 20 years of experience, driving organizational growth and innovation. Over the course of her career, she has led major expansions, launched nationally recognized treatment brands, successfully integrated departments following acquisitions, and built high performing teams across multiple states. Known for turning vision into results, Carrie's leadership approach blends data-driven decision-making
with a deep commitment to the human side of care and a respect for the culture of behavioral health. She's also passionate about mentoring women, helping them lead with confidence while staying grounded in their values. I am so excited, welcome, Carrie.
Carrie (05:22.216)
Thank you. Thank you, Jill. Thank you, Molly. I'm so excited to be here with you both.
Jill Griffin (05:22.832)
Welcome.
Molly Bierman (05:28.262)
And for our listeners, why this is near and dear to me is that Carrie is my mentor and we started our relationship in a mentor-mentee relationship many years ago and since has evolved into a lovely friendship. So I'm just so excited to have another woman on our podcast that can share.
values, insight, takeaways. She's a mom, she's a leader, she is a brilliant woman, and so just super excited to have you here, Kare.
Carrie (06:06.74)
Thank you. Quite an intro.
Molly Bierman (06:09.806)
Well, you deserve it. So I don't know. I feel like for me, I'm sitting here thinking about, you know, last night how this interview would shape. And I think it's going to happen organically. But why don't you just give us a little bit about, you know, your background, you know, how you entered into the field.
a little bit maybe about mentorship. We'd love to hear a little bit about kind of your, you know, your early days.
Carrie (06:43.892)
Sure. Well, I started in the field, I guess, like 25, well, over 25 years ago. And I had gotten my master's in counseling. And I actually went to the University of Arizona for my master's. And I became pretty, like, obsessed with working at Sierra Tucson back in the day. And so one of the...
the restaurant that I was hosting, hostessing in, someone who would come in all the time was the clinical director there. So like, I clearly stalked her and got a job in the alumni and discharge area. And so that really introduced me to more of the business end of it, which I really fell in love with. And I think I became early.
on got really interested in really thinking about how people made their healthcare decisions. And that's where I came across my first mentor and he was really the first person to see leadership potential in me. So that's really where, you know, I kind of cut my teeth in behavioral health and really got introduced to the idea of having a strong mentor and somebody to really show me, you know, kind of help me develop into the person that I wanted to be in this industry.
Molly Bierman (07:51.746)
amazing.
Carrie (08:07.876)
and foster my interest in the industry.
Molly Bierman (08:10.882)
Yeah. What do you mean, you know, a lot of our listeners are, you know, yes, people in behavioral health, some people outside of behavioral health, a lot of women who are, you know, eager to develop in their leadership roles. When you say, you know, how people made their health care decisions, can you elaborate a little bit more on like what you were drawn to in that aspect and what that means to you?
Carrie (08:39.282)
Yeah, I I just, I can't explain it and I almost can't. It's just, I always found myself interested in the psychological space that people were in when they picked up their phone and called. Especially in those days, there wasn't as much people, there was no chat, there was very little email.
terms of how people reached out, but how when someone would pick up the phone and call, like what psychological headspace are they in? And so there's the, you you want to sell your program and have your program be somewhere that they choose, but there's also, are we the right program for them? And so I would always try to really just listen to their headspace, not in a sales way, but like, what is it that they need to hear? Like what's...
What are they connecting with to help them decide how to make the best decision for them? And so from like, I would almost say from the micro to the macro, and then, you know, how does where the world is in an economic perspective, or even a political perspective really influence how people are feeling just psychologically about spending money?
about taking time off of work, like just anything that really factored into how people made their healthcare decisions, I found myself just really wondering a lot about. And again, there's two pieces to that. One is, you know, just to make sure that I'm sensitive to the headspace that they're in. And then, you know, if we were the right program for them, like helping them see that, it, again, if it was right for them.
Molly Bierman (10:24.61)
Yeah.
Jill Griffin (10:24.871)
You mentioned a good point though, because I think leadership in behavioral health spaces really ties into that ethical piece and making the right decision. Because when you're dealing with, whether it's medical systems, behavioral healthcare systems, you're talking about a person's life, right? And you're talking about these really difficult decisions that people have to make and accept, whether it's about themselves or their loved ones.
And I think a lot of the leadership in this space is when the program, our program isn't the right one for them, right? And maybe there's a financial cost to that from the business side, but from the human side, that's not the right thing to do is sell our program as the right one. Can you talk a little bit about that and how that like the ethical piece of it and how that's driven your, cause over 25 years, the industry has changed so much.
Carrie (11:08.212)
That's right.
Carrie (11:17.822)
You know, I think that's the first time that Molly and I really connected was when I was giving a presentation at Silver Hill about changes in the industry. And I think that this was probably about 12 years ago. Mal, does that sound right? And, you know, I would say in the early 2000s when I was out doing outreach or marketing, you know, people greeted you like you were the queen.
Molly Bierman (11:34.326)
Yeah, probably about right. Yeah, 12 years ago.
Carrie (11:47.001)
someone is coming to visit me from a treatment program. And, you know, there really wasn't a lot of, per se, competition. And as the industry grew, certainly a lot of competition, you know, came in, you know, we can go into an entire podcast on, you know, the shifts in the industry and access to health care and private equity coming into health care and, you know, really it turning into quite a business.
But, you know, I always was fortunate enough to work with programs that I felt were really completely ethical and really were much more about development of a solid program. you know, I believe it's like a circle. Like, we get to market our programs because we have a quality product.
And you have to have a business in order to be able to market those programs. like the, it's like a yin and a yang to me. So if you invest in having a strong program and trying to have the right people, you know, access your care, I won't say everything else takes care of itself, but that's just a key fundamental piece of, really that's where it all begins is having a strong quality program and really saying to people, if we are the right place for you.
then we'd love to be able to serve you and if not, then let me help you get to where you need to be.
Molly Bierman (13:23.95)
Yeah, I think that is such a crucial time in my career and what a full circle. I remember that presentation vividly, right? And I was very early on in my career. I was just starting to kind of straddle two roles where I was doing a little bit of marketing and I was still I think operating as a tech part-time at the facility that I was working for in Fairfield County. And
My boss said, you need to go to this marketing event and like introduce yourself, right?
I was petrified and people who know me today are, I think, a little confused about how this all came to be. Like the energy that you feel now is not the energy that I had 12 years ago and Carrie can attest to that, right? So I remember watching this panel.
And seeing Carrie up there and this isn't to glorify but really to highlight that her energy and her presence like she was rooted in her values. You were rooted in your values. You were rooted in your mission in your position and there was some thing that was almost like energetic about that that I was like I need to figure out how this woman has all
these, you know, all this knowledge, right? And being hungry and being eager to learn. And I think that mentorship and why it was so crucial for me in my role was that I didn't really have that from a boss. And you have to remember when you're looking for a mentor or you're trying to learn in an industry that you're really passionate about, your boss has a bottom line that they're expecting you to follow.
Molly Bierman (15:12.588)
And so they're always going to be a little bit skewed on the business side, where if you have someone outside of your organization, they're looking at it objectively. And so obviously I didn't kind of put all those pieces together in the moment, but I vividly remember after that, after that talk and hearing the values, the ethics rooted in strong belief system to help your clients and patients.
that I needed to understand how this all worked. So maybe you can share a little bit about how that, not necessarily from that time, but like leading up to that time, how did you get there? How did you learn how to operate within your compass?
Carrie (15:46.27)
Yeah.
Carrie (15:52.148)
Thank
Carrie (16:00.681)
I mean, I really think it goes back to that first mentor that I had. He was just very influential to me at that point in time. I still is, but we don't talk that often, but he was just, I really modeled myself after him and almost like drank in his words on how we want to be. And he really helped me build a foundation.
of really again who I wanted to be in this industry. He always spoke about coming from abundance and that's something that always stuck with me. And he always really made sure that we understood that this was a business and kind of going back to what I said before, if we have a strong business, then we can afford to take care of our staff, to take care of the patients in the way that we want to.
Jill Griffin (16:39.856)
I love that.
Carrie (17:00.308)
to take care of not needing to slide down in who we accept into treatment in order to put a head on a bed, so to speak. And he just really set the bar very high. And one of the things that he offered to me when he went and took another position within this organization was an opportunity to kind
co-lead the department while they were looking for somebody full-time. And so that really gave me an opportunity to get a taste of what leadership looked like on an organizational level. I think that also, mean, that's actually several years before, it all blends in like now that it's like 15 years ago or more. But.
That actually kind of blends into the time where I started thinking about getting out there and presenting, sharing what I knew about the industry. I could tell, you know, at that point in time, Molly, when we met each other, that we were at one of the first of several, I would say, big shifts in the industry. you know, there were a lot of new people entering into the industry at that point in time. Like I remember,
again, like 20 years ago, there was maybe like six or seven of us that did this, you know, literally, like, and we all knew each other. But there were literally like six or seven of us that did this in the Connecticut and New York area. And, you know, I think by the time that you and I met, and I had started doing some leadership, you know, positions at and professionally at my work and started doing some presentations and seeing that the industry was shifting and changing.
I would think there was probably like 40, 50, 60 people at that meeting.
Molly Bierman (18:58.43)
yeah, I was thinking that. was like how many people? There were probably about 50 people at that event.
Carrie (19:03.568)
And now there's literally, you know, hundreds if not thousands doing what we do.
Molly Bierman (19:09.251)
Yeah.
Jill Griffin (19:11.858)
What would you say to somebody coming into the field now into one of those roles?
Carrie (19:20.084)
Gosh, what would I say? Let me think about that.
Carrie (19:31.228)
I probably would talk to them a little bit about, again, some of the things that you and I are talking about now.
I need to, this is going to have to be cut for a second. Sorry. I need to get my. I know, I know you said it was okay.
Jill Griffin (19:48.561)
That's all right.
Molly Bierman (19:48.814)
That's fine. Take your time.
Carrie (19:54.44)
But give me just one second here.
Molly Bierman (20:00.942)
So.
Carrie (20:04.402)
I really want to look at.
Carrie (20:09.363)
Okay.
Carrie (20:17.172)
Thanks. So what would I?
Molly Bierman (20:18.978)
You want to repeat the question, Jill?
Carrie (20:22.575)
unless you want to repeat it.
Molly Bierman (20:22.85)
Joey. Yeah.
Carrie (20:26.302)
So what would I say to somebody entering the behavioral health field?
Jill Griffin (20:26.577)
What would you say to somebody entering the field? Yeah.
Carrie (20:36.676)
Definitely get a mentor. But you know, I would say, especially if you want to grow in this field and develop that really thinking about it in terms of grasping opportunity and building skill. I think there's so many positions in competitive organizations now.
where they will dangle really high salaries and almost unreasonable expectations of people who really are even just starting out in this industry. And so they're lured by really, again, nice base salaries and potential to bonuses. But I think if you, and it kind of fosters people having this kind of perspective of,
I want to get a promotion or I deserve to do this because I did that. And I think that that's really the wrong angle to come at it from. I think that people really need to look at it from the perspective of building skill. If you can approach it from kind of the place of how can I prepare myself today for what comes tomorrow and demonstrate the skills and
you know, demonstrate initiative, you will then be ready for the opportunity when it presents. Like, let your interest be known, be a driver in your growth, but present it in a way that also serves more than just yourself. And if you have someone strong and ethical as a mentor, then that would really help you too. So I definitely think it's about just really learning skills and competencies and taking initiative. But
really being careful not to be lured by high salaries that oftentimes come with unreasonable expectations. Because I think we've all seen a lot of really good folks and even friends of ours kind of go through that churn of every nine months or a year shifting jobs. And that's OK. I don't want to say that from a place of judgment. But a lot of times when I've
Carrie (22:48.616)
you know, pick up phone and said, Hey, catch me up. What's going on? They're like, you know, it was just, they just expected too much. the organization wasn't ready for the growth that, you know, they were pushing to get out there through, you know, putting people out there in the field. And, you know, now they're, and I found a great opportunity, great salary. And so people ended up moving around a lot more. And I think if you stay put for a while, you're going to learn a lot.
Molly Bierman (23:16.216)
I think that's so important because I, you know, a lot of what I remember about my early days in behavioral health, obviously I, well not obviously, but I had climbed kind of the ranks where I had gotten exposure as a tech. And then, you know, I love how you talk about like, I just needed an entry point and I was the alumni and discharge coordinator. And, and I, you know, started where I could cut my teeth, right?
And a lot of that, I think, comes from this desire and passion to want to be in the space. And I think people are called to this space. They don't necessarily just show up in this space, right? For a lot of people, it's not just a job, right? It's a calling, it's a passion, it's an energetic connection, whatever you want to call it. And so when, as I...
climbed the ranks, had this passion and connection to my program, right? And I think when people are connected to their program in that way, it makes them flourish because they have seen the outcomes. They have touched, you know, the families that are struggling. They have, you know, connected with the clients on a level that you don't always have for certain individuals who are, you know, working for programs kind of nationwide. And so
Carrie (24:17.332)
there.
Molly Bierman (24:42.754)
When I think about the skills and the technique and the competency, Jill and I have had a lot of conversations about this and I'm sure she can weigh in, that competencies and skills don't just happen because you have had a couple good relationships, right? Skills and competency happen from learning the ins and outs of how to develop both at the business level.
And the client facing level because the reality of this role is that is a meld of the two, right? It is not just a sales role. If you would like a sales role, there are many things to do out in the world that are just sales and not necessarily partnered with a life. And Jill, I don't know if you want to add to that, but I feel like we've had a lot of conversations about that, you know, dynamic and the challenges that people face.
Jill Griffin (25:39.922)
So I think as a clinician, it's hard to enter the field and understand the business side of it, I think. When you graduate and you go in as an intern and I entered into the field working in state-funded programs, then I moved over into the private pay side, I would hear about the marketing aspect, I would hear about the business development. I didn't really get it and I...
A lot of therapists who are on the ground floor are providers. They're the ones doing the business, right? They're the ones providing the care. There is sometimes a big disconnect in the business part of it of what one arm is doing in the other. And the people and programs that do this the best
in my mind, from what I see, are the ones where the clinical is teaching the business development side and the business development side is teaching the clinical side and they have a relationship together that works. Because what ends up happening and why I stand on my soapbox a lot in this field is because we are dealing with people. And at the end of the day, I have businesses, I have a bottom line, I want to be profitable so I can continue to pay staff and the bills and all of that. Sure.
But I am not going to blur my ethical boundaries around what clients are appropriate or not appropriate because once you start doing that, it's a slippery slope. It's a slippery slope into, you know, your standards of care changing and the clinicians and providers getting really unhappy and really, you know, confused as to what's happening on the business end and people start panicking. I mean, we've seen this so much in our industry. As a clinician, though, there is sometimes
Carrie (27:09.096)
That's right.
Jill Griffin (27:29.553)
You're like, wait, people are getting paid to go and talk about our program? Like it's a little bit of a, when you come from this, we talk about our code of ethics in school and I graduate with my degree and I just want to go help people. You don't consider the business side. think I'm probably unique in that I fully represent as an entrepreneur. I opened a business. I have multiple businesses. Like I can, I can do the business side and I can see that part. Most clinicians can't though.
That's like a foreign language, right? But you have to have both. So I do think that it's, you can't have one without the other. And with the industry changing, you have to have a business development presence. It's just how it is now.
Carrie (28:10.772)
Yeah.
Carrie (28:19.016)
funny that you say that. You know, I think that there's a perception that this is about going at. I think it's shifted. I think that there's a lot more awareness from the I'll call it clinical or program teams that this isn't a cush job, but I think that there was a time where people saw it is they take people out to dinner and they get on planes and they travel like a glamorous job. And I'm like.
This is not that glamorous. This is a hard job. A, you're meeting with therapists or physicians or any type of clinicians, programs, whoever, and really asking them to trust you with someone's life. That's a big ask. It's not, would you like to try this skin cream?
loves him, you know, like, it's very different. this, yeah, and so to get somebody to say, yes, I will, you've earned my trust, I will pick up the phone and call you. If I think that there's somebody who needs you, that takes a lot. And then there was this perception, I think that if I just went and talked to Jill, Jill's gonna send me
Molly Bierman (29:18.114)
Yeah.
Jill Griffin (29:19.621)
The stakes are a little higher here.
Carrie (29:45.279)
six patients next week, so and so doesn't know about you. Like there's always going to be people that don't know about you. If there were people that did that, if everybody knew about everyone, there wouldn't be a need for this job. Okay. So like, let's just realize that there's always going to be people that don't know about a certain treatment program or resource. But, you know, a lot of, as I've grown in my career, I obviously look at a lot of data and it's also something that I'm like,
slightly obsessed and fascinated with is just numbers and KPIs and data and metrics. again, what factors into how people make these healthcare decisions. There's the numbers and then there's the story. But one of the things I always look at is conversion rates. so if you work for a program and you have say a 20 % conversion rate, that means for every 20 people that came to your program,
There are 80 that called that did not. And for those other 80 people to call, people did some work to get them to trust them to pick up the phone. the teams or the advertising and marketing teams are really looking to go out there and connect with a lot of people to inform them, of the program, but B, that they can be trusted. So for those 20 people to come to you,
to your treatment program, a lot went into that.
Jill Griffin (31:14.478)
Mm-hmm.
Molly Bierman (31:16.01)
What do you feel like when you think about, you know, kind of the early days and scaling your career, you've worked for really large organizations and probably more so in the infancy stages. You know, your first job was has definitely grown as far as the organization that it is under now. Back in the day, it was not it was privately owned. But what are some of the what do you feel like are some of the things that
you have done in your leadership role that were worth kind of the personal toll because I think I'm hearing a lot of what you're sharing is that you, there's this common misconception about this role that it's easy.
It's a lot of jet setting and being in uncharted territories and hanging out with people and having dining experiences. But people who sit in the role understand there's a toll. So what are some of the tolls that you paid personally and that people may not know the sacrifices that came with building a career on this platform and in this type of space?
Carrie (32:29.332)
Yeah, I mean, there's some, it's hard for my, my kids are older now. So, uh, they're in their twenties. And so I do remember when they were younger, I would, I would say now, now it feels almost typical to me to say I missed some, some games and some dance recitals. Like there was a personal toll, um, like in, the family life.
Molly Bierman (32:58.242)
Mm-hmm.
Carrie (32:58.462)
But I also felt like it really, I really was like a great model for particularly my daughter in terms of balancing a career that has been so rewarding to me and I have so much gratitude for. But I think as I grew, I think that there's loss.
Molly Bierman (33:06.743)
Hmm.
Carrie (33:23.956)
that with every stage of growth, there's really loss. And I think of when I moved into a leadership role and how alone it can feel and the mistakes that I made, the things that I had to unlearn. So mean, again, there's so much there I wouldn't even really know where to begin. But I think
Jill Griffin (33:35.462)
Mm-hmm.
Carrie (33:52.627)
you know, fast forward to about three years ago, and I worked for a company that had been was in the process of selling or sold and I've been in a leadership company in a leadership position at that company and I was just like, I just don't want to do this anymore. like, I've took the big swing. It was great. And
it's just not another swing I want to take again. And I was, I would think, pretty emotionally, physically, spiritually depleted. My father had passed away and, you know, he and I always had a great relationship, but I can think of times those last couple of years where I now feel like, wow, I probably should have been there a little more. You know, I didn't know he was,
Molly Bierman (34:46.302)
Carrie (34:49.928)
going to be passing away, just in retrospect, being more available to people, even if I was physically present, being more emotionally present. So I think that those are some of the prices that I paid or tolls that it took. And when I ended up leaving that position, it was uncomfortable. We can talk about that a little more later if we want. But I remember my mother saying, you're such a nicer person.
which I was thrilled to hear and then I also had some shame about, you know? Because I always thought I was a nice person, but clearly I was not.
Jill Griffin (35:21.465)
It's always the mom that has a comment about that.
Molly Bierman (35:24.726)
Yeah, it's amazing.
Molly Bierman (35:29.42)
Jill, why don't you share with Carrie what your mom said to you about being a nice person and your daughter?
Jill Griffin (35:29.809)
No.
Jill Griffin (35:36.327)
So she, my, it's not just my mom, it's actually both my parents will say, your daughter's just like you, except she's nice.
Jill Griffin (35:47.474)
which now my daughter reminds me of too. I'm like, yeah, all right. So I guess I'm a bitch. Thanks. You know, when you were talking, when you were talking about the loss and the loneliness and leadership, it really just, that's why we started this podcast. And that's what Molly and I have talked about for years where when you're,
Carrie (35:48.89)
You're like, I don't quite know how to react to that. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.
Molly Bierman (35:50.254)
That's amazing.
Carrie (35:57.352)
Lucky for her daughter.
Molly Bierman (36:08.386)
Yeah.
Jill Griffin (36:15.141)
doing the right thing sometimes it feels lonely. When you're the lone voice trying to shift cultures, it can be lonely. I think as a woman in leadership, it can be lonely. I think a lot of things have changed, but I also think it's still a male dominated space in leadership roles and what that looks like and how we're perceived.
in leadership as females. So speaking of nice versus not nice, do you have anything to say about maybe how you were perceived in that leadership role? I know I have many examples of something I may do and something a colleague might do will be perceived much differently, but it's the same behavior.
Carrie (37:00.774)
Yeah, it's interesting. You know, I think that perceptions of me vary. I think it's fair and valid. In terms of what I would say is not my strongest way of being perceived, you know, I've been told that my tone can be harsh sometimes and that I can be intimidating. And like,
Jill Griffin (37:25.179)
Same girl.
Carrie (37:28.564)
To be honest, when I'm not at my best, can show up harder than I intend to. Then I think about where comes from. It's like, I'm frustrated, so I pull into rigidity. I pull into restriction. And people have told me that I'm intimidating, which I'm like, that to me, I don't want to invalidate anyone's perception, but I feel like I can't, something about that does not compute because I guess it's about me.
And then I think, know, other times I've been told, you know, that I'm a really strong and fair leader. You know, I don't think that people would say that they don't know where I stand. I think that people would say that I am really direct and I treat people fairly. And, you know, sometimes someone does not like a decision that's made.
You know, and but that does not necessarily mean that they were treated unfairly. so, and, you know, it's interesting because some folks on teams that I've, they have a joke name for me. call me Nostradamus, which I think is hilarious. And I'm like, why? I don't understand why you're calling me that. And they're like, because everything that you tell us is going to happen happens. And.
Jill Griffin (38:32.721)
Totally.
Molly Bierman (38:54.414)
Mm.
Carrie (38:56.048)
In retrospect, we should have listened to you the first time. And I have no skin in the game about being right. As a matter of fact, I love to be wrong because it also gives an opportunity for us to show how to be resilient and how to be honest about failure. But, you know, I think that sometimes people's perceptions of you, you know, change over time too. Like they might, about like, you know, something I said or did or.
Molly Bierman (39:21.646)
Mm.
Carrie (39:25.908)
decisions that were made that I was, you know, had to stand in front of and say this is a direction that we're going in. Here's what you're probably going to see. Here's what we probably need to be careful about or watch out for. you know, people don't like change sometimes and that's okay. But, you know, I think in retrospect, they're like, we should have listened to you.
Molly Bierman (39:45.047)
I think that goes back to, yeah, and I think that goes back to clear as kind, right? So even if they aren't, and I think that was something that you really instilled in me, Carrie, through all the changes that took place in my career and all the advancements and things that I wouldn't have been able to accomplish without a mentor. And so.
If I was clear in my values and clear in my, you know, where I stood, then I could be clear with my team. And then therefore, even if they don't agree, that doesn't mean that I don't say it, right? So I think there's this ability when you have clarity in where things are going. And granted, I have fallen short, you know, of course, and I've come from a place of feeling fearful and don't want to.
Carrie (40:22.452)
That's right.
Carrie (40:27.134)
Thank
Molly Bierman (40:42.092)
be transparent because I'm scared of whatever's on the other side of that and kind of grappling with those moments. But I will say that somebody can disagree and feel like they don't want that shift to happen. But as long as I'm making sure that I'm leaning into the transparent language with them, then it's up to them to kind of get caught up to speed, right? And I think a lot of this happens. And we talked a lot about that through different transitions, right?
Carrie (40:46.58)
Of
Carrie (41:07.238)
Yeah.
Molly Bierman (41:11.958)
especially when it comes to acquisitions, because you are having to keep the trust of your team, but also
try to encourage like a smooth transition and straddling both spaces is really, really hard because you feel like there's emotions involved, right? And I think people don't, you I think people sometimes look at people who are in leadership roles and especially women and feel like we're not emotional or we're too direct or we should be a little bit softer. All the things that you said are we're intimidating, right?
But I like how Jill talked about that too earlier on that, you know, side by side, you probably wouldn't say that about a man who was, you know, that would just be the expectation, right? So level setting there, I think is important.
Jill Griffin (41:59.623)
you
Carrie (42:01.799)
Yeah, yeah, I agree. You know, and as somebody develops as a leader, especially if they grow within the organ, like is not hired in but grow within the organization that you know, they're in. I think that they often begin by thinking that they have an opportunity to become the voice of of the team then and they, know, are supervising their peers, they
And someone has said to me, you I got stuck in a real people pleasing kind of almost vortex and not knowing how to have those difficult conversations. so, you know, their new leaders are constantly pulled in a hundred different directions. And if they're not able to be, like you're saying upfront about where you're leading the team and they'll, they'll drift, you know, the team will end up really leading you.
Molly Bierman (42:55.832)
you.
Jill Griffin (42:56.497)
Yeah.
Carrie (42:59.148)
you know, one subtle acting out team member can really toxify, the rest, know, so I really work with new leaders or folks that I'm developing or mentoring to, you know, ask questions, learn what's going on underneath it, like nip it, like nip it in the bud, but, you know, give it time to be heard, see if the behavior changes. but really, you know, teach something, teach someone how to have, you know, those hard, hard conversations.
Jill Griffin (43:15.951)
Nip it in the bud.
Molly Bierman (43:17.484)
Uh-huh.
Jill Griffin (43:29.969)
Yeah, it's funny because I just had this week a conversation about that with a new leader in one of our programs. And I said, listen, they had made a comment about being a peer. Will they still see me as a peer? I said, well, when you start making some decisions, you're no longer going to be seen as a peer. Very quickly, they're going to see you as somebody above them. And so there's two things that can be true.
Molly Bierman (43:30.089)
Jill Griffin (44:00.476)
We can all have fun and joke around and we could be friendly and everything could be a kumbaya in the space that we're working in. And I can hold you accountable to your work. Because the moment that, and that was part of the conversation because if we don't hold people accountable, not the first time, the second time, I'm sorry, but there's gonna be people who give them an inch, they're gonna take a mile. And now you're gonna have to try to walk it back after
Molly Bierman (44:14.062)
But that scares people. That scares people.
Yeah.
Jill Griffin (44:30.411)
giving them chance after chance and not addressing it, that's going to be a more uncomfortable conversation than in the beginning. Hey, these are the standards that we have. You're falling short of the standard. I'm just curious what's going on. Are you having a tough week? Like the questions you're saying, like ask the questions. What's behind the behavior? Because sometimes team members are scared to tell you, mom's at home dying. I have a flat tire. I can't afford to fix. I mean, they have real stuff going on.
And sometimes they're not telling you that. And so I think that's where you open up those lines of vulnerable communication around, okay, I can't solve all your life's problems. That's certainly not my role as a leader, but I can maybe hold space for that. And maybe I do have some suggestions or who could help or how we can manage that better in the workspace. And sometimes that solution is it sounds like you need a break, right? But we need to model those conversations for the new leaders coming on. And, the people pleasing thing really
If that's not nipped up in the bud for the new leaders coming in, you're going to really struggle.
Carrie (45:37.075)
Yeah, you're right. And I think part of what you're talking about is creating kind of space for people to be honest about what's going on with them without fear of really being judged or being almost punished for being real and vulnerable with you. And some of the things that I've done with folks in that situation,
are really sharing with them. And I can be a pretty boundary person. Molly knows this. I probably lead with boundaries, like pretty, pretty, I don't know, a wall, I would say. So I do have to push myself there. But if I do and I demonstrate some vulnerability to someone and show them that, you know, I've been where you are, you know, in some way.
it's often a relief for them and it's really like a guard down moment for them where they can connect on that experience. And, you know, also, you know, along the way, letting them know just how much I believe in them, not just in like a you're doing great way, but like demonstrating for them that I believe in them and really want to encourage their risk taking, try new things, stretch into areas where
you know, they're uncomfortable, but that I think they need to be pushed and that I think that they can tolerate the discomfort of it. So like, won't coddle, I won't try to protect them, but really want to give an opportunity for them to own their own growth and build some self-trust during those times of becoming, you know, a leader.
Molly Bierman (47:08.088)
Bye.
Molly Bierman (47:24.248)
I think that that was so impactful when I, know, kind of part two to the story of asking Carrie to mentor me was I don't really know what came over me because it was totally out of character. But Carrie had finished her presentation and I was, and I, I think I just because I had nothing to lose, right? I was like, maybe she says no, maybe she says yes.
But I knew that I needed to learn in a way that I was not receiving at the time. And so the stars aligned and I went up to Carrie and said, you know, do you think that we can have coffee? And her immediate response was, I'm not really in like a marketing role anymore. I'm in a leadership role because I think she was, at least my view was like that she was processing that I was looking to like develop like a B2B relationship with her.
And I just doubled down and I was like, no, I need to learn from you. Like I need help, right? And that's what started this relationship. And I might've even said the word mentor. I was like, I just need a mentor. I need help. I need suggestions. What I'll say about that when you talk about boundaries is that that was really helpful for me because in the beginning, the relationship, I didn't need a friend. I needed someone to show me
how to grow, right? I needed someone who was boundary. I had a pretty easy time making friends my whole life, you know? you know, people gravitating to me, me gravitating to them. And I think this brings up a really crucial point in our behavioral health space is that I am here to do a job.
I love that I have developed some beautiful relationships along the way, but I'm not here because I need a friend. I'm here because I want to learn and grow and develop relationships that can help more people and I can improve my skill set and my competency. And that's what Carrie did for me, right? And so it evolved into a friendship because it's been over a decade now, but the
Molly Bierman (49:40.335)
I just want to reiterate the importance of who you are keeping in your circle and for what purpose. Are they a mentor? Are they a boss? Are they a friend? they, you know, like I think really drilling that out because that was that boundary that you had around I can be a mentor. You weren't leaning in like I can be your friend. That wasn't the purpose.
Carrie (50:06.014)
and then we became friends.
Jill Griffin (50:06.233)
I don't think, yeah, that's not just our industry, though. I think in a lot of industries where you're at some social events, you're you're, having coffee, having meals together, you're sharing space, you see each other maybe a few times a week, depending on what, you know, even at work, right, your colleagues.
Molly Bierman (50:07.65)
Yeah.
Molly Bierman (50:25.294)
Sure.
Jill Griffin (50:27.995)
These people are not always your friends. You're in relationships with them, but they're not your, that's a whole nother thing. But I think speaking of boundaries, right? It's like, I can care a lot about people and support them and want the best for them, but they're also not my friend where I'm telling them everything that is going on with me. And I think that that boundary gets so blurry and.
in our space specifically, but even in like medical fields, because I've worked in hospitals and stuff before, I think because you're around people so long, especially 24 hour programs when you're like mandated and you're there, you're with each other so much. But because we're talking about these personal things all the time, you're like, well, I can share this about myself. And it's like,
Molly Bierman (51:13.132)
I feel like, whoa.
Jill Griffin (51:15.013)
I've learned the hard way of why we don't do that all the time. You know?
Molly Bierman (51:18.688)
Yeah, what I'd love to carry. Are there like face down moments or moments where you feel like you really like are there tangible examples where you really grappled? You're like, I feel like I've made a wrong move there or that I had like a face down moment or a moment in leadership where I feel like it could have done something differently.
Carrie (51:39.349)
I mean, a thousand of them probably. I mean, you're bringing up a couple things that are coming up for me. Like what are some boundaries that I've, first one is one of some boundaries that I've developed. And I can think of two, like one is not being accepting of other people's judgment. And another one is not making decisions out of fear and trust me.
I've done both repetitively over years. It really is only the past several years that I could say that I do those much less.
Molly Bierman (52:17.868)
Wait, what was the first one again? Can you run those two back?
Carrie (52:19.802)
not being accepting of people's judgment. Just like, no.
Molly Bierman (52:24.205)
Mmm.
Jill Griffin (52:28.679)
We're not accepting that anymore. We're not doing that. Like, Sounds like your stuff, not mine.
Carrie (52:30.138)
No, we're not. We're not going to do that. Or I'm not going to do that. You can go ahead and do it all day long if you want. Yeah. And like what I learned like through one of my strong female mentors, like actually the person who I most recently worked for a couple of years ago is that leadership demands making hard, unpopular decisions. And what I have the agency over is the manner in which I execute it.
Molly Bierman (52:36.941)
Yeah.
Carrie (53:00.592)
And that's what I just have, like there is zero chance, zero, that I'm going to please everybody. So it's actually quite freeing to be able to make the right decision. So people would learn, you know, that I wouldn't, I'm not going to waver on important decisions, but knowing that I didn't have to please everybody kind of takes the pressure off trying to do so. And then you can do what's right. And Molly, you said about the
you asked about a face down moment. I think one of the biggest lessons of my professional life was, I can't, it's long time ago now, like, I don't know, eight, nine years ago maybe, I don't know. And someone that was a growing leader, I was supervising somebody who was a growing leader who had a team. And they said to me, I would like the opportunity to
lead this team, this group of folks, a little more independently, wanted some space from my involvement. And I'm like, I love ambition. I love seeing that. And so I was like, sure, have at it. And they had at it. They ended up leaving and taking three of the four people with them. And that was a huge mistake that I made because A, the business suffered because of it.
You know, it did, and I was embarrassed in front of my colleagues, my leadership team. And because I realized I did not have to make myself smaller to make them bigger. Those things can coexist. I say nothing negative about this person. It is simply a situation where I need to own my failure. And subsequently, I did not see relationships
Molly Bierman (54:26.19)
you
Jill Griffin (54:41.159)
That's a big one.
Carrie (54:55.924)
with people in my department and connection and figuring out what they need and what kept them connected to me or to the company. And again, the development of the person that actually supervises them can coexist with my involvement in their work relationship too.
Molly Bierman (55:20.523)
It's such a good example. I mean, to not make yourself small to make someone else big, right? I mean, that's such a crucial lesson. think that also as, know, when you're really challenged with being able to connect with someone, I think that is an easy way, right? And I think this kind of goes back to the inception of the podcast. And Jill and I have talked a lot about that where
when you make yourself small to kind of prop somebody up. And the whole reason for this podcast and the whole reason we titled it No Permission Necessary was because we stopped asking permission to make ourselves big, right? And in whatever capacity that means, like owning our personal life, our financial life, our work life, friendships, et cetera. And so...
When you went through that moment and I was honored to be a part of that with you and hear your challenges and be able to watch you kind of work through it, do you feel like you have resolve around it now and how long did that take? I think for a lot of people, they struggle to kind of still straddle that, those challenges.
Carrie (56:37.673)
Well...
Carrie (56:41.404)
What challenges specifically do you mean?
Molly Bierman (56:44.47)
Yeah, when you have those face down moments to not kind of go back there. Yeah. Yeah.
Carrie (56:52.314)
Not like do I still, can I still connect to the feeling of it? Yes, but I just really tried to get into the place of, A, what do I need to do to fix it? The situation, like how do I backfill it? How do I like just from the work perspective, B, like how do I make sure that this doesn't happen again? What have I learned from this? And I think that
I think I do that pretty well. So I don't feel like it has a hold on me still, but I don't want to forget it.
Jill Griffin (57:30.617)
No, those failures are the things that we learn from. And in terms of being vulnerable and, you know, building up staff and different leaders, you have to use those examples of, no, I didn't get it right all the time. this is, I had to, know, Molly always uses the term skim my knees. I had to make mistakes and learn from these failures because
Carrie (57:34.644)
That's right.
Jill Griffin (57:56.59)
I got the warnings from supervisors, mentors. They told me, well, watch out for this or, you know, it's not until you do it, you're, I, it'll be different for me. And I don't know if some of that is an alcoholics way of thinking of like, it'll be different for me. But I do think that we, we think we have different, we have a better answer, right?
Molly Bierman (58:16.438)
Yes, the answer is yes on that. answer is yes on that. Totally.
Carrie (58:21.009)
about that.
Jill Griffin (58:22.673)
So I'm gonna wait until I make the mistake myself, but that's what sticks with me. I mean, those are the things I've been here before. I'm not willing to go through the emotional pain or the embarrassment or the shit, whatever the emotion is behind it. I'm not willing to do that. So I'm gonna do it differently, even though I don't really wanna do it that way either.
Carrie (58:41.31)
Yeah.
Molly Bierman (58:45.454)
I mean, there's so much to unpack there. I would say that, you know, kind of jumping around here, but you know, I think it's an important piece is through your, and we touched on this a little bit at the beginning, that there were challenges where you might have felt like you should have been somewhere for your children and that some moments were harder than others. And I think that goes back to Jill and I talking about that work-life balance is kind of bullshit. Yeah.
Jill Griffin (59:13.255)
Bullshit.
Carrie (59:14.834)
yeah.
Molly Bierman (59:14.966)
At every turn, your energy is more towards one area than the other. So instead of looking at the things that were missed, and I think you're a really great person to share on this, is how did motherhood change your approach to leadership? How did it create more abundance, as you would say, rather than less?
Carrie (59:32.766)
Yeah.
Carrie (59:39.027)
Yeah, well, first I'm going to, you said, you said the word balance and that's kind of like a trigger word, right? For with that, you know, in the way you're talking about it, like what is it? I'm going to introduce the word equilibrium to you because I believe that there's people think that equilibrium is balanced, but equilibrium is more about movement.
Molly Bierman (59:57.134)
Mm.
Carrie (01:00:05.564)
and competing forces and it's much more fluid, I believe. And that's kind of how every time I've talked about balance to myself, I've replaced that word. And it might not be the official definition of it, but to me, it fits. And with motherhood, I think I was a mother before I saw myself as a leader. Again, I my kids are older.
But so what I would say is that motherhood really informs my approach to leadership. My job is to help somebody, if I'm mentoring them or if I'm their supervisor or if I am their mother, to be realized as the person that they want to be. Guiding them, really about guiding someone's development.
Whether you're working with someone who's a growing leader or someone who is a mentee or your children, they aspire to have more responsibility, more visibility. They make decisions that feel heavy as they grow. Insecurity is stirred up. I think the questions from them are like, am I ready for this? Kids might not have the words to articulate that. They instead.
you don't run into things, but I mean, really that's how they learn. Am I ready for this? You know, I can think of someone that I provided some coaching and mentorship to, and you know, we would talk a lot about how to lead in a room with people that had bigger titles, how to get her voice heard, how to balance really vision with like the framework and steps to deliver the vision, you know, really learning that and then letting them know.
just like I would with my kids. I believe in you even when you can't quite see yourself there yet, wherever the there is. So I think there's a huge parallel with parenthood or motherhood and leadership. It's like, I believe in you. How powerful are those words? And even with, I think of my daughter, even my son and people that I...
Carrie (01:02:28.946)
know, might mentor or lead, you know, letting them to know, letting them know that they're really not to become a copy of me, carbon copy of me, even if it feels safe and they might admire something about me that they need to grow into their own person, their own leadership, have their own style, their own voice. Like our children and who we supervise are not extensions of us. And it is our job and our responsibility to help them become the person that they want to be.
Molly Bierman (01:03:03.618)
I think that's so, you know, I admire that about you. I admire that about Jill. My children are obviously still very small and sometimes it's hard to wrap my head around being able to loosen the reins in that way, but I've been able to watch other women who've done that. And I think that, you know, going back to what you said about showing your daughter what it looks like to be a working mom, a mom in leadership,
trusted confidant, right? Like all of those.
It's almost like your world doesn't have to be separated. Like I love how that equilibrium, you know, that equilibrium analogy, because it's almost as though it all fits together. There's no, when you're aligned with your passion, you're aligned with your purpose, you're aligned with your employment, you're aligned with your qualities and motherhood, it's almost as though.
you never have to look at it so compartmentalized. I think that really just struck me in a big way. I think it was definitely an important, something that I'm gonna be taking away for sure.
Jill Griffin (01:04:21.831)
Speaking of takeaways, do we want to talk about the way we usually end a show? I don't know if you gave Carrie a heads up on that.
Carrie (01:04:28.116)
Molly Bierman (01:04:28.394)
I didn't, I totally forgot.
Carrie (01:04:30.555)
Molly Bierman (01:04:33.462)
It's good, it's good. You're gonna like it.
Jill Griffin (01:04:33.799)
So at the end of every episode we do a permission slip. And so when we have a guest on, have the guests do the permission slip. And it's just for everybody listening or watching, what is something that you would give them as a permission slip in their life?
Carrie (01:04:54.548)
So who am I giving this to myself or to tell them? I'm like what? I'm like, yeah. To the listeners, give yourself permission to not expect perfection.
Molly Bierman (01:04:58.914)
No, you're giving it to, well, you can give it to yourself, but it's really for the listeners.
Jill Griffin (01:04:59.207)
maybe something.
Carrie (01:05:15.828)
I think striving for balance or striving for perfection leads to really rigid, fear-based decision-making. And if you expect perfection and you're afraid to make the wrong choice, you'll avoid risk. And that means you won't have access to things that will enrich your life or enrich an outcome. I think of folks that I work with now, and most people who've worked with me have heard me say, we're going to nail it.
80 % of the time. Of the 20 % that we don't, we will probably tackle another 10%, like that 10%, and it'll be really great. But 10 % will probably never fix it. I think if we expectation set, but not expect perfection, that's...
That's a good thing. I get strangely excited when I can say to people, like, we got this wrong. I can fall on the sword so fast and with such a big old smile on my face. But again, it sets the stage to be accepting of risk, to be accepting of failure. It models how to try to fix something. And typically when you do, you have increased confidence that this time you've got it right. So I guess I would say, give people permission to.
I'm not expected for affection.
Jill Griffin (01:06:41.318)
I love that one.
Molly Bierman (01:06:42.754)
I should feel like I should know that, you know?
Jill Griffin (01:06:46.469)
Molly needs that one pretty often.
Carrie (01:06:48.244)
Thank
Molly Bierman (01:06:51.8)
I mean that 80-20 rule, I mean amazing. And I know you've told me that, but again, some really good nuggets today that I really, really needed to hear and evidence that I need to continue to be learning and open and remind myself I can't be the teacher and the student simultaneously. think I need to.
You know, at some, sometimes I'm the teacher and sometimes I'm the student. And what does that, you know, what does that look like? What does that equilibrium look like? I'm removing the word balance effective today. So effective immediately. I want to ask one last question, before we wrap up, which is, I think really, really, really crucial for people who
Carrie (01:07:25.204)
Just immediately.
Jill Griffin (01:07:27.151)
Effective Media.
Molly Bierman (01:07:41.934)
are expecting to walk into a new space, behavioral health or not, and wanting to grow in their roles, what would you want the next generation of behavioral health leaders or otherwise, what would you want them to know? And yeah.
Carrie (01:08:00.34)
to know.
I mean, I feel like there's two pieces to this. One is like much more almost like more tactical. But I
It goes back to something that Jill said about it's gonna be different for me. And I think that leaders coming into this field have to realize that you can't take a model from another industry and lay it over behavioral health and think that it will deliver. And I wanna be really clear.
I am not being critical of other industries. And it's not as though I think that people coming in from other industries cannot succeed. I do think they do. I've seen it. But coming in with, you have to come in with curiosity and with a lack of arrogance. And I've been guilty myself of
being over impressed with people coming in from different industries and laying a model over behavioral health. And, you know, I would think, I can, I can learn. I'm going to ignore my gut. That's telling me what they're doing might not, might not work because I should be able to learn from them. And yes, I should be able to learn, but I should also be able to trust my gut. And that's, that's something that I've learned. So I think that that's really a tactical one. And then for someone coming, just coming into this industry, whether you're,
Carrie (01:09:40.594)
developing as a formal leader or not, it's don't be afraid of change. You can mourn loss and things that when you're moving somewhere else that you leave behind, but develop resilience and excitement for change. And if you are a leader, become an expert in change management.
That's what I would, the advice I would, I guess if not the word advice, you didn't use advice, what would I share with them?
Molly Bierman (01:10:16.718)
Yeah, well, with you at Cher, yeah. I mean, be an expert in change. Really impactful today. I'm so glad you came on. Thank you, Carrie. Thank you for your insight. yeah. Appreciate you. Bye.
Carrie (01:10:27.09)
I am too. Molly. You too.
Jill Griffin (01:10:27.879)
This was great.