Sarah Seibel on Recovery, Resilience, and Breaking Generational Cycles

Sep 8

Season 2 Episode 2 with Sarah Seibel

In this episode of No Permission Necessary, Jill and Molly are joined by Sarah Seibel for a powerful conversation about recovery, resilience, motherhood, grief, trauma, and breaking generational cycles.

Sarah shares her experience with addiction, homelessness, treatment, relapse, single motherhood, and the moment she realized her daughter’s story did not have to become her own. Now working as a primary therapist, Sarah reflects on what recovery looks like from both sides: as someone who has lived through it and as someone who now supports others through their own process.

Together, they explore why recovery is about more than stopping a behavior. It is also about tending to the trauma, grief, shame, fear, and nervous system patterns underneath it. This conversation is a reminder that recovery is messy, lifelong, and deeply human, and that healing often begins when someone feels truly witnessed.

Molly Bierman (00:00)
Guys, welcome back to No Permission Necessary. I am so, so excited have someone who's near and dear to me.
And Jill and Sarah meeting for the first time this episode. So today's conversation represents exactly where we want no permission necessary to be headed. want to have honest conversations with people who have lived through something, made meaning from it, and are willing to tell the truth about what recovery and change actually requires. Our question today is not simply what did you recover from? It's what are you really recovering from?
Because stopping a behavior, leaving a situation, or surviving a crisis is only just the beginning. So welcome Sarah Seibel to No Permission Necessary.
when you heard
the word recovery, what do you believe people are recovering from?
Sarah Seibel (00:51)
I mean, in the past when
I started my own recovery journey, I thought it was simply getting sober. and kind of learning how to bear life without substances. Now I see recovery as my gosh. It it's as you said, it's not the behavior.
It's all of the layers and the things and the traumas underneath that really need to be tended to and sat with and felt and processed. so that is how I see recovery now. And it it's lifelong. I will be recovering until the day I take my last breath.
Molly Bierman (01:33)
Mm.
Jill Griffin (01:33)
It reminds me of the onion, the layers, right? That
Sarah Seibel (01:35)
Yes. Yeah.
Jill Griffin (01:37)
whole analogy of peeling the layers back of the onion, because I remember really early on in my career a mentor of mine teaching me about how addiction is really just a symptom, right? Addiction and and substance use is a symptom because it's all in an effort to self-manage or self-medicate whatever's going on underneath, right? And so
Once we can stop that behavior of the drugs and alcohol use, then it's the layers of well, what what was what went before that? What's underneath
Sarah Seibel (02:08)
Right.
Jill Griffin (02:08)
that?
Sarah Seibel (02:09)
Yeah, absolutely. And I'm reading a book right now called The Trauma Heart by Judy Crane, who is associated with like the guest house and the refuge, and the way she describes it is like all of those behaviors make sense when we kind of untangle that trauma story. And I didn't learn that when I was in treatment.
Right. Like
Molly Bierman (02:33)
Mm.
Sarah Seibel (02:33)
when I was in treatment, it's like you're doing this this bad thing that's hurting other people, that's hurting yourself, and you just need to stop. And that sounded really good, but with all of the pain inside and and all of the, you know, completely dysregulated nervous system, what what happens then when I stop? You know what I mean? and it's it's kind of in that space between
that we really have to I mean that's where the work happens. That's where the work happens for sure.
Molly Bierman (03:03)
So, Sarah, you have such a powerful story. And those listening, you know, I've had the honor of watching Sarah grow up in her career. And we got to work together on the inpatient unit that I ran. And just the level of like dedication and commitment and zest you have for this space. So before we go into
your history, because I know you've been open enough to share some of your story with us. Let's talk a little bit about where you are today. What does today look like in your life?
Sarah Seibel (03:34)
So today I just finished all my classes for my master's degree. I am in my internship and I am so excited. I
am going to dance and and cartwheel across that stage. yeah, and working full time as a primary therapist, and I'm also a single mom and just really
trying to lean into all of the things that I don't yet know, right? Like working, I work at a long-term treatment center, which is very different from working, you know, where where we were doing this much more fast paced. We had a little tiny window of time to make a big difference. this is very different.
But I'm learning a lot in like the slowing down and the being able to really be with people and just become join in their process with them. It it's just very, very different than
Molly Bierman (04:34)
Mm.
Sarah Seibel (04:35)
the faster paced.
Jill Griffin (04:37)
What parts of your life would an earlier version of you have the hardest time believing?
Sarah Seibel (04:42)
Of my life now, all of it.
Molly Bierman (04:44)
Ha ha.
Jill Griffin (04:45)
Yeah.
Sarah Seibel (04:45)
I'm not kidding. Like if you would have told me even five years ago, and you know,
Molly Bierman (04:50)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Seibel (04:51)
five years ago I was over five years sober that I would have a career, that I would have,
successfully raised a loving, fearless, kind human. I would have been like, yeah, I don't see that happening. It was survival mode for a long time, you know?
Molly Bierman (05:12)
I mean, and how important the like protective factors we have of you know, that survival mode and being able to like lean in and do the like nitty-gritty to survive to keep ourselves alive. I mean, you were keeping your daughter alive. I mean, there was a lot going on early, early on, before you are where you are today, and I can't wait to hear that. And I wanna know.
you've been a day one listener of no permission necessary, which we are so grateful. Sarah's like one of our biggest cheerleaders of the pod. And when you agreed to have this conversation and come on, what did you feel like was gonna be most important for people to understand your story?
Sarah Seibel (05:52)
I think people need to understand that there's such a big difference between like theory and application when we're talking about all of this and what a recovery process actually entails.
I mean, one of the the key things for me was just consistency, just continuing to show up in spite of what I felt like, in spite of what was going on, in spite of whatever might have been going on inside of my head that day. Like at some point you just gonna keep showing up and see what happens. And it turns out when you show up and you
really try to do the next right thing, good things happen pretty easily, honestly.
Molly Bierman (06:39)
I mean, those face-down
Jill Griffin (06:39)
Yeah.
Molly Bierman (06:40)
moments and Jill, you know, Jill and I have been, you know, in agency work together and we talk a lot about that. And to have Sarah on here is so valuable and important. And I can remember there would be days early on in Sarah starting to work for me and she
Sarah Seibel (06:55)
bad.
Molly Bierman (06:56)
would come in and she would be unhinged. Like
Sarah Seibel (07:00)
I don't remember.
I come in and be like, I can't do this. I have to leave. We I can't do this. And Molly would be like, Yes, you can, get back out there. And I'm like, Okay. Yeah.
Molly Bierman (07:10)
It was just like that tethering, right? Like when you feel
like you're like I I did it yesterday. I called my colleague yesterday on Teams, Teams video. I had three minutes and I was like, I just need to tether to you for a second because I feel crazy.
Sarah Seibel (07:26)
Yeah.
Molly Bierman (07:27)
You know, like sometimes it's just that that simple of knowing that somebody sees you, okay. And also that like we all are doing our best. And when Sarah came, you know, when you came in to work.
On the impatient unit
I'm gonna say a couple things. One is you cannot breed commitment, loyalty, or passion.
Sarah Seibel (07:48)
That's true.
Molly Bierman (07:48)
All the other things other things can be learned, right? All the other things can be achieved. All the other things around clinical practices and charting and emailing. I mean all those other things using a calendar.
Sarah Seibel (08:01)
Right.
Molly Bierman (08:02)
All those other things.
Jill Griffin (08:04)
Yeah.
Sarah Seibel (08:04)
I still
have a desktop calendar, by the way.
Molly Bierman (08:06)
All of those things can be taught, but what cannot be taught is being fiercely loyal, fiercely passionate, and fiercely dedicated to the mission. And so for all those reasons, I am like beyond honored to hear your story on No Permission Necessary and you for to be you to be able to share that with you know with our with our people. So without, you know, us trying to interrupt or you know ask a bunch of questions, like
How did you go from homelessness?
To an active addiction to where you are today.
Sarah Seibel (08:39)
well, I mean, I think the first part of that answer is just as I already said, like the the commitment to to just keep going. you know, the the first time I used was sixth grade. so it started very, very young for me.
It was it it was really, really dark. I went through some pretty significant losses. lost my mother to alcoholism when I was 18. She was 35. so it got more complicated after that and then lost my my firstborn child was stillborn. So that was kind of the
That's when it got really, really dark. and you know, I just got to the this place where I I think for well, I know for years I was just passively suicidal. after all of that happened. And you know, there were a few really clear moments in my story that I just know for me it was God.
where it was n nothing inside of me. It was just like this not audible voice, but this knowing of if you don't go get help, you're going to die really soon. so the first time I felt that I did that. I went and I got help. didn't end up staying sober, maybe.
maybe about six months, went back out kind of the same thing over and over again. And I think, you know, often having my mom in the back of my head, like and wanting my story to be different, but just not knowing how to make that happen.
I don't know, it was just something bigger inside of me. So I I went again and got help. But as I was ready to discharge from the residential program I went to, I I was like, this isn't enough.
So I decided to go to like a long-term program. It was in Allentown, Pennsylvania, and kind of just packed everything up and and started over. and went through that program, successfully completed it, went into sober living, and ended up doing really well and stayed sober for about two years.
during which time I got pregnant with my daughter and ended up having to have a C section and they sent me home with a beautiful ten pound baby and a big bottle of paint pills.
wasn't thinking relapse. you know what I mean? But that's exactly what happened. so I, you know, bringing her home, I think the reality hit me. At this time I'm living in Baltimore. still no license, no car. I was working, did have my own place, but the reality hit me like, my gosh, I have like this.
human to take care of and very little resources and that combined with you know kind of flipping that switch back on it just it started again and I remember looking at her she was
Maybe about a year and a half. And it was another God moment where it was like, if you don't do something now, her story's gonna be your story. And I was like, fuck that. We're not doing that. Like something in me changed at that moment. and I again packed up what we had, which wasn't a whole lot.
Called my cousin and was like, I I wanna come back home And Alana and I went into a shelter. I detoxed on my own. and I don't know, I just became
Determined. Just determined. Like it like I said, it was just something in me like this doesn't have to continue for another generation. And it it kind of stops here. And so far it stopped.
Jill Griffin (12:47)
I think for me hearing that story, it reminds me of so many people's stories in recovery, including my own, where there are these in the in the midst of all the blur that we have, there's these
Sarah Seibel (12:59)
Mm.
Jill Griffin (13:01)
very distinct moments that voice, whether it's an intuition, God, the however people want to frame it, it
Sarah Seibel (13:10)
Yeah.
Jill Griffin (13:10)
is a very universal experience. And I think
We talk a lot about how we turn that intuition, we turn that voice down or off when we're using or in the midst of behaviors that are really not good for us because we don't want to hear it, right? And I think when we can, like you said, lean into it is when the change can happen. So I hear that turning point for so many, but it there's a distinct difference between the people that
answer or listen to that call for that change and the ones that ignore it time and time again.
Sarah Seibel (13:42)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jill Griffin (13:44)
So I'm wondering like what what did early recovery demand from you that you weren't prepared for? You're sounds like still now you're homeless in a different state with an infant daughter starting over again. I mean, that
Sarah Seibel (13:56)
Yes. I mean
Jill Griffin (13:59)
right there is a lot.
Sarah Seibel (14:00)
It was a lot. I mean, There there wasn't time for excuses anymore. You know, by this time, I'm realizing and recognizing one what a pivotal time it is in her life.
Right, because like this is where she's developing her identity and her personality and needs like stability and structure and safety and routine. And I just wasn't able to give her those things up to that point. And just doing all the things that I thought I couldn't do. it's the fear.
Paralyzed me for most of my life. you know, it just
you just you just go. You just go. And that's what I did. Like it was just it's I knew it was gonna be hard. I knew it was gonna be scary. and I just had to kind of befriend the fear. And I still do. I'm still scared every day. Every day. Walking into work, coming home to my child and like, you know, am I messing her up? Well we all mess our kids up. Just that's just the way it goes. We're
Molly Bierman (15:06)
FYI.
Sarah Seibel (15:06)
all human. but
The fear isn't going anywhere. And I think I was waiting for the fear to go away to start making changes. And it it's not going away. Like it I mean, it's not as strong as it used to be, but it's like, all right, fear, let's go. You know, we're going into another day, another season, whatever.
Molly Bierman (15:32)
I mean, I think that w we say like fear and faith can't live in the same house. I I don't necessarily know if I agree with that sentiment because I feel at times maybe they can't pair like live at the exact same time in the same house, but I feel like there's a lot of fear that comes up for me on a daily basis. And you know, whether that's
walking into a conversation with a client and feeling a little bit of imposter syndrome, whether that's running an inpatient unit feeling like I don't know what I'm doing half the time, whether it's parenting my child and feeling like, my God, did I say the right thing? You know, those kind of ruminating thoughts that come up. And
Sarah Seibel (16:09)
Mm-hmm.
Molly Bierman (16:09)
then really being able to kind of take the leap and say, okay,
If I made the wrong mistake or if I took the wrong turn, you know, does that mean that that that that it's it? You know, or do we just keep pushing forward, like you said? So when you think back on being able to, you know, survive during that time, I think a lot of people have misconceptions. Number one about women in active addiction, number two about mothers in active addiction. And so when you really think back to that time.
Do you know, what do you feel like people misunderstood about you during that period? Especially now you being on the other side and helping so many people that are in that position. Like what do you feel like people misunderstand?
Sarah Seibel (16:54)
in terms of I think people misunderstand that the process is messy. Right? Like it goes back to what I said about the difference between like theory and application. And it's it's the same in in the work that we do now, but it's it's also the same in living all of this out. Like, you know, when someone is stepping into recovery, like
They're really learning as they go. Like I talk to my patients now, and it's like you're being dropped off on another planet. And like, good luck, figure this out. Like it's gonna be
Molly Bierman (17:30)
Yeah.
Sarah Seibel (17:32)
messy. It's gonna
Jill Griffin (17:33)
Yeah.
Sarah Seibel (17:33)
be there are gonna be missteps. There are going to be, you know, hard days are gonna be days where, you know, my behavior just look might be reminiscent of what it was back then and just.
You know, I think giving ourselves grace, giving others learning to give give grace is so so important. And just knowing this is a process. leaning into the messiness of the process and knowing that like
It's in those moments where I'm like, man, I could have I should have done that different or whatever. Like those are the moments that I'm growing that I'm learning, you know?
Jill Griffin (18:18)
Well, to me it's all shame based because people don't want to admit they need help, right? Because then that something's wrong with me. People don't want to do the wrong thing. So that fear holds them back from even trying in the first place, right? When the reality, when you say it's messy, and I I share about this all the time, my early recovery, I was a hot mess. Like, and I
Sarah Seibel (18:42)
Mm-hmm.
Jill Griffin (18:42)
share that because I think people
Molly Bierman (18:43)
Truly.
Jill Griffin (18:43)
think,
Well, w we celebrate, you know, that moment when you stop using, but that's when the actual deep work starts. And that's when the the ride begins. Like buckle up
Sarah Seibel (18:55)
That is
Jill Griffin (18:56)
because it's about to get bumpy.
Sarah Seibel (18:58)
yep. Yep. And I think so many people aren't prepared for that. Like the individual, but also like family and loved ones and other people watching.
Jill Griffin (19:06)
Yes.
Sarah Seibel (19:08)
as a clinician now, I have to remind myself of that all the time, you know, working with people. Like it's gonna be messy. And that's good because we can't deal with the things if they don't show themselves.
Like I tell my patients all the time, I'm not interested in your compliance. I'm not interested, like show me who you are because that's where we're gonna do the work. Right? Like it's the mess is good. Like that's that's where we do the work. That's where we heal.
Jill Griffin (19:40)
One thing I'm interested in in terms of the intergenerational healing that you are are speaking to. And you know, it sounds like your relationship with your daughter now is so strong. I'm wondering around the resiliency in that relationship and how much she knows about your family's history, your sobriety, like what does that look like?
Sarah Seibel (20:03)
So I mean she's a little bit older now. So she I'm open with her. I've always been open with her. you know, but in developmentally appropriate ways. Of course, when she's five, I'm not like giving details, but I've let her know, you know, yeah, like I've struggled. She she doesn't really remember those parts of the story. But you know, now that she's older,
to me it's critical that she understands one to know what she's susceptible to right but also to know like the strength in her lineage too you know what I mean and
I I want her to be aware, right? Like you guys know, there's so much stuff out here now that like it's like I feel like every week I'm hearing like of new substances and new just I don't even know. Like I'm getting old. but I I I want her to know, right? Like what
what's out there and and I don't hide those parts. I I you know speaking to what you brought up Jill about shame, like I I don't feel ashamed of my story anymore. for a long time I did. Now I I'm I'm really proud and to me it's important that that she
knows there's not shame in our mistakes, there's not shame in our missteps. We're going to make them. and, you know,
just being able to be honest with ourselves, you know, about those moments. but again, like we just keep we keep going. We keep going.
Molly Bierman (21:53)
When we think about parenting and motherhood and entrepreneurship, leadership, you know, I give myself grace naturally. sometimes I struggle with that, but I I will say that there has been this. I remember when I did my first interview and my first podcast telling my story, and I did it alongside my mom, and it was
A roller coaster because I really worried about what other moms were gonna think. I didn't care about anybody else, right? Which is interesting because for a long time I don't I didn't even really envision myself becoming a mom, right? And so telling this story and people hearing things that may have made their stomach turn, right? And you know, you talk about
There are people that have lower bottoms than others. And I think the three of us have always identified that that bottom had to be fairly low for us to really throw, wave the flag and say, okay, you know, it's bad enough. but I think back to using my voice and the beautiful part.
That kind of happened on the other side of it was there were a lot of moms that reached out and that were not in the recovery process, but were in their own shame or in their own guilt or in their own challenges. And they just said, like, we are so grateful to have you in our life, or we're so grateful to know you, or we're so grateful to know more about this story. So that way we know who to turn to what, you know, if our kids struggle or if a family member struggles, you know. So I think for women,
I don't know why that feels stronger and but I loved your reframe. Like she needs to know that she comes from power, you know,
Sarah Seibel (23:43)
Mm-hmm.
Molly Bierman (23:44)
and from resilience and from grit and all the qualities that got you to where you are today.
Sarah Seibel (23:50)
Yeah.
Jill Griffin (23:51)
Well, what I can say as a therapist, and I'm sure you see this, Sarah, too, that the the mother and father wounds are attachment wounds
Sarah Seibel (24:01)
Yeah.
Jill Griffin (24:01)
generally are showing up as we become parents. That that is the the bulk of the trauma work that I do with clients. We're
Sarah Seibel (24:10)
Mm-hmm.
Jill Griffin (24:11)
identifying these attachment wounds that they didn't even un identify having and that we've uncovered.
Sarah Seibel (24:18)
Yeah.
Jill Griffin (24:18)
Some of them are stronger than others. Some of them are a loss of a parent. Some are your parents just were never attuned to you emotionally, and you don't know how to identify your own emotions.
Sarah Seibel (24:28)
Yeah.
Jill Griffin (24:29)
But what I see when I grow when I was growing up, and even now, it's like I'm uncovering these like truths about my family's history. And it's like, I don't want my child to have to guess about, you know, all of these things.
Sarah Seibel (24:41)
That's all right. Yeah.
Jill Griffin (24:44)
It's like,
I'm not going to show her an ashamed version of myself. Like this is who this is who I am. And because that unconditional love is going to be there from a child,
Molly Bierman (24:55)
I do.
Jill Griffin (24:56)
it is whether you're full-blown alcoholic, abusive parent or not, because they don't know any different. A child's love is very innocent and naive, right? And so it if we're showing all of us, the most the more important part of that resiliency is.
Setbacks or mistakes don't define us. You can do something different. Like those are really healthy, positive reframes and ways that we push our children forward to have like just a healthy balance of yeah, you're gonna be afraid of things and things are gonna be scary and they're gonna be hard, but you can do them. That's resiliency. And
Sarah Seibel (25:29)
Yeah, we do many right. Yeah.
Jill Griffin (25:31)
and frankly, that's what's missing in a lot of parenting and and raising of children these days, too. It's like, no, no, no, they're supposed to do hard things.
Sarah Seibel (25:40)
Yep. Yep. Yeah. I mean, you know, I have a picture in my house that it I mean it literally says like w we can do hard things. That's that's just what we do. and and looking at that, I you know, I I heard a quote a while back that said the space between wanting and getting is where resilience is developed.
Molly Bierman (26:03)
Mm.
Sarah Seibel (26:04)
And I really liked that.
I I think there's a lot of truth in that. And and you know, one of my hopes as a mother, but also, you know, now working as a therapist and just as a human is like helping people to realize that that space is good, right? It's uncomfortable. It asks a lot of us, but it is like that's that's where the good things come.
Right. Like same thing with you, Jill. Like I've been, you know, following your fitness journey. Like how many days you've had to get up and be in that discomfort and and just pushing your body, but like doing that over and over and over again, like that's where the good things come. So when I feel that like, I just want this to happen, or or s I'm seeing her struggle, like, you know, she struggling with math or or a friendship or whatever, it's like.
This is where the good things are coming, right? Like and and when we look at it that way, it it gives it meaning. It's it doesn't just become hard. Like it's like, okay,
Molly Bierman (27:14)
Exactly.
Sarah Seibel (27:14)
this means something though, you know?
Jill Griffin (27:16)
There's also a difference between something being hard and the struggle. And so I'm wondering for you, was there like a turning point in your recovery story of that s that sense of relief, that breath of fr like, okay, I'm content. I'm no longer struggling to just exist and do the bare minimum.
Sarah Seibel (27:40)
Yeah. Yes. And I would honestly say it took me a while to get there. I would really align when that happened with when I started working with you, Molly, and and you know, working there and kind of just allowing myself to feel
what was actually happening versus what my nervous system was telling me was happening, which was like what was actually happening is like things were okay. Like things were steady. Like they there were still challenges and there always will be, but like I I was able, I I guess what I'm saying is like be more present. And when I learned how to
Allow myself to come into the present and and really look at the facts of what was going on, the struggle lessened because the struggle was in my head more than
Molly Bierman (28:40)
Mm.
Sarah Seibel (28:40)
it was in my day-to-day in many cases, right? Like were are there there's still financial struggles and things like that, but like a lot of the struggles were just my, you know, clouded perceptions of.
what was really going on when things were they were okay. But when things are okay, that feels really fucking scary sometimes. Like I need the chaos.
Molly Bierman (29:06)
I also
I also think that there was this, you know, w especially working in behavioral health, and I want to ask you a couple questions about kind of now you being on the other side. And before I get to that, I mean I think there's this, and this is was one of our mantras, Sarah, was the client's taking the risk on us to get well. We're not taking the risk on them.
Sarah Seibel (29:23)
I say it every day. Yep.
Molly Bierman (29:27)
And so a lot of times we would rumble because there would be frustration or challenge or the client was acting, you know, you did an AMA block three times in one day. I mean, people were exhausted in a lot of ways, right? And for those that don't know what an AMA block is, it basically is, you know, when we're leaning into
a client and the leverage points to help them stay seated in treatment until their their brain can land, right? And they and and and their nervous system can land to not be in fight or flight. Right. And so a lot of times that would be exhausting. And when I would look across my desk or look across the hall or look across the conference room, I remember just being in that moment.
What is mine versus what is the clients?
Sarah Seibel (30:12)
Yeah.
Molly Bierman (30:13)
What is mine versus what is the clients? And a lot of times when we're working with families, it's the same thing. I mean, I had a conversation with a family yesterday and they were spun up, right? Like lots of crisis, lots of fear. And I just kind of looked at them and said, we really need to tease out what's yours versus what's your what's your loved ones.
Sarah Seibel (30:30)
Yeah.
Molly Bierman (30:31)
And a lot of times that feels confusing. So, you know, now that you've been an experienced, you know.
You've been experienced, had experience with both behavioral systems on as on the client side and as on the professional side. So what do you feel like you've learned from sitting on both sides? Both as client and and professional.
Sarah Seibel (30:52)
I
Think that I've learned, you know, and looking at it from the perspective of being a client, I can remember not really feeling seen. not
Molly Bierman (31:04)
Mm. Yeah.
Sarah Seibel (31:06)
feeling heard. And when I say not feeling heard, that doesn't mean that people hear me and and do, you know, they do what I want them to do, but like actually not feeling witnessed. so one of the biggest
you know, the starting point for me with the people that I work with now is is just being with them. I want to make sure they feel seen. I think that it is in the relationships that we build with the people that we serve, with the families that we work with, how I show up authentically with them. People feel that, right? And you know, as women in recovery, like we feel that.
I I want to make sure that the people that I'm serving are feeling that from me. And I've learned that if we're willing to put in the effort, it takes a lot of effort and energy to build that relationship and establish that trust. But when that is done and done well and done with integrity, there's not much I can't say to the patient. and
And they know that what I'm giving them is it's it's based in fact, it's based in truth, it's based in care and concern. It might be the exact opposite of what they want to hear. so I just think, you know, being witnessed, being seen, being, you know, again validated, validation doesn't mean I agree with you.
Validation doesn't mean your idea is good. It doesn't mean that I'm gonna support what you're saying, right? But I I see you and I know what it feels like to think that is a brilliant idea. But it's not.
Molly Bierman (32:57)
Totally.
Jill Griffin (32:58)
I'd also say all of those things are probably why you had a healing experience working under Molly, because my years in this field, I have learned that the behavioral health systems are built to kind of reinforce some really dysfunctional behaviors that we come into the field with. I don't always think it's intentional, but I think.
in order to dismantle those behaviors and regulate the staff's nervous systems and their belief systems, we do need to be intentional about that. And I don't I don't know that that happens in all systems.
Sarah Seibel (33:37)
Yeah. I mean and it it doesn't and it you know, I the only
You know, sometimes I get overwhelmed when I look at the entirety of the dysfunction in all the systems beyond behavioral health, but just all the systems. and you know, I kind of have to pull back and what you were saying, like what what's mine, like what can I do? How can I show up here? How can I, you know, exemplify the things that I
you know, am saying are so important and so necessary and healing and have to keep my focus on that, right? Like that systems change one person at a time. And and I don't always get it right either. There are days that
Molly Bierman (34:22)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Seibel (34:22)
I'm just an absolute shit show. and, you know, I I try to
Jill Griffin (34:27)
And that's okay.
Sarah Seibel (34:28)
go back and take accountability for that. I mean, that's another thing I do as a mother. Like when I make a mistake, I
Well tell my child, I'm sorry. Like I I'll never forget one time and I think I may have shared this with you before, Molly, but I came home and I was just, you know, it was just not a good day. And she's like, Mom, your stress is leaking on me and I was like, Ooh.
Molly Bierman (34:52)
She is like the most in tune child. Truly. Yeah.
Sarah Seibel (34:54)
But I was like, I thanked her. I was like, you know
what? You are right. Like, thank you
Molly Bierman (35:00)
Yes.
Sarah Seibel (35:00)
for sharing that with me. And and that's kind of the relationship that we built. Like, I'll tell her, she'll tell me. And I think it's it's the same in the spaces that we work with the people that, you know, my clients, I will let them know. Like, my energy is off today. I apologize. I'm just letting you know it's not about you because a lot of times like people do think it's that.
You know? Being honest is so important in this work. So important.
Molly Bierman (35:27)
Do you have question, Jill? Go ahead.
Jill Griffin (35:27)
I was gonna do no, I was gonna go into
some final rapid fire questions.
Molly Bierman (35:31)
Okay, good. Let's do it.
Jill Griffin (35:33)
All right, you ready, Sarah?
Sarah Seibel (35:34)
I haven't ready as I'll be.
Jill Griffin (35:35)
What are you still recovering or healing from?
Sarah Seibel (35:38)
There's still a lot of grief. Still a lot of grief. yeah, I would say that's the biggest thing.
Jill Griffin (35:45)
What is something you no longer need permission to believe about yourself?
Sarah Seibel (35:49)
I trust myself now. Like I trust my intuition. I I just do. Like I look at the facts now.
Jill Griffin (35:58)
Finish this sentence. You are allowed to.
Sarah Seibel (36:01)
Be messy.
Molly Bierman (36:03)
I knew you were gonna say that.
Jill Griffin (36:04)
I love that.
Sarah Seibel (36:06)
Be messy. Own it. Like that, and I think that's how we find our people too. Like just like
Molly Bierman (36:11)
Totally. Totally.
Sarah Seibel (36:14)
going back to what you were saying about like Molly, what what are mom's gonna think?
Jill Griffin (36:17)
Yeah.
Sarah Seibel (36:18)
And and I hear that, but like I don't know. I think when we show up and just allow ourselves to be that messy, you know, whatever, like that's how we find our people.
that's what people are yearning for. There's not
Molly Bierman (36:31)
I'm fine.
Sarah Seibel (36:32)
a lot of that in this world. We have this
Molly Bierman (36:34)
Sorry.
Sarah Seibel (36:35)
curated world all around us in social media and like I'm not interested in that. Give me the mess.
Molly Bierman (36:41)
Mm-hmm.
Jill Griffin (36:43)
And I think, you know, we often hear that phrase, you'll find the message in the mess. Because I think the reality is the more that we can show up and be vulnerable, we can counteract the shame that we feel for not having it all together. And I know one of the more powerful things I think Molly and I share on this podcast is we are messy. There are days that
it doesn't look the way you think it does. And we still do it anyway. I mean, we
Sarah Seibel (37:10)
Mm-hmm.
Jill Griffin (37:12)
still show up and we do it. And even if it's not perfect or looks great or whatever it is. so I'm just I'm so happy that you came on to share your
Sarah Seibel (37:24)
Thank you guys for having
Jill Griffin (37:25)
story. I think it's so important to reframe recovery as, you know, it's not just about
putting down a substance, right? There's all these other things we can recover from. And and I think it's good for everybody to ask, like, what am I trying to stop, fix, or move past? But what what am I trying to reclaim in my life? What am I trying
Molly Bierman (37:46)
Right.
Jill Griffin (37:47)
to s what what strength am I stepping into? And and I think that's really what you talked about today.
Sarah Seibel (37:53)
Thank you both so
Molly Bierman (37:53)
Amazing.
Sarah Seibel (37:54)
much for having me.
Molly Bierman (37:55)
I mean
So powerful. If this conversation gave you something to think about, please hit follow so you never miss an episode. If no permission necessary, send this episode to one person you love, you care about, maybe needs a maybe needs an ear, guys, right? Like a lot of people sometimes feel like they're too far gone or they didn't make the life decisions that they should have. And there's a lot of shoulds in their life. Sarah's story is based in resilience. I love you, I honor you, I'm so grateful for you coming on and
Thank you.
Sarah Seibel (38:26)
Thank
you so, so much.