Who Are You When No One Needs You?
Episode 57 with Jill Griffin & Molly Bierman
In this episode of No Permission Necessary, Jill and Molly explore what it means to over-identify with being needed, especially in helping roles, motherhood, recovery, leadership, and family systems.
They discuss the difference between helping and saving, the desire to fix other people’s problems, and the emotional cost of tying personal worth to being useful, reliable, or strong. The conversation also looks at how early family roles, recovery experiences, professional helping work, and parenting can shape someone’s relationship with being needed.
This episode is a reminder that helping others does not require abandoning yourself, and that your value is not measured by how much other people rely on you.
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Jill Griffin (00:00)
Here we are, welcome back everyone. Molly and I have
Molly Bierman (00:03)
Welcome back.
Jill Griffin (00:04)
not recorded for a month now. We have taken a little hiatus.
Molly Bierman (00:08)
It's been lovely.
Jill Griffin (00:09)
little summer hiatus. It's been nice.
Molly Bierman (00:12)
Very nice.
Yeah, I think we have a lot of exciting things happening for the podcast. And it was nice to kind of take four weeks. but I think what really we found was, hey, where are we with the podcast? How do we continue to put out content that you guys feel aligned with? what can help us to grow, develop, and just be better at what we're doing here. So
Guys, I don't know if you know this, but in the very beginning of this journey with the podcast, it was something that I was super ambivalent about because it's something that we did not have any experience with. And Jill and I, in our day-to-day of being behavioral health experts in each of our domains, do things that feel comfortable and are actually like fairly second nature to us.
And so the podcast has been something that has been really
I don't know. What do you think the word is for it?
Jill Griffin (01:07)
The first thing that came to mind was dysregulating, but that's not what I'm looking for. What I'm looking for is like,
Molly Bierman (01:13)
That's true though, has been at times.
Jill Griffin (01:15)
it has been at times, it's just like, I still don't feel like I know what I'm doing. It's challenging, challenging. It is challenging in a way of
Molly Bierman (01:20)
no, we still don't know what we're doing. Mm-hmm.
Jill Griffin (01:25)
like, I need to ask for help, I need to ask for support, I need to check in. There's no confidence like I have in other areas.
as an arenas in my life.
Fair to say.
Molly Bierman (01:37)
Fair to say. And
I think that's really a perfect lead-in to kind of what we're what we're talking about today because there's a lot of
People that need things from us individually. And that is really what makes up the work we do. If people didn't need us, we wouldn't have a job. So it plays like this really integral part of our day-to-day life. And for the podcast.
We're not really getting that same fix of like somebody needing something from us, right? We kind of said, like, we think you need this from us, so we're gonna start a podcast, but no one necessarily was like knocking on our door about doing a podcast, except each other.
Jill Griffin (02:22)
Well, I guess that's part of it, right? That makes this a little bit challenging is that you don't, we get feedback from people randomly. And I say this whenever somebody gives me feedback or is like, hey, I've listened to your podcast. I'm like, it's so nice to hear that and get feedback. And I ask questions because we can't tell who's listening unless you tell us or comment on the podcast, wherever you listen, whether it's Spotify or Apple or any other platform, or you comment on our website or respond to our newsletter.
We don't know your feedback on what's going on here. So in terms of being needed, it's a different type of feedback loop that we're getting because we're just kind of talking out into the void.
Molly Bierman (03:03)
Totally. And
Jill Griffin (03:04)
You
Molly Bierman (03:05)
w and that's something that we've really, really kind of tried to hone in on. So that's gonna come later in the next episode. But what we really want to talk about today is how do you know
you're over-identified with being needed.
I think this is something that Jill and I have really, really had to hash out over the years between, you know, our careers, our jobs as being moms, fr friends. So I really want to start with some just like basic questions for us to really lean in and and give some
you know, authentic responses. And I think what we've really taken away over the last couple of weeks as well, while we've been trying to redevelop where we're headed with the podcast, is that you guys want to hear more about us rather than hearing kind of us teach you. Right. So the hope is is that through these episodes we're going to start to really align what that looks like. So
Jill Griffin (04:04)
I just say that when I read this topic, my immediate reaction was, this isn't me at all. I always say I'm the least codependent person. I don't have a problem with letting people struggle or having to jump in and fix. But I will say that when I sat there and thought about it, it's like my early on relationships, pre-sobriety,
And I guess like even getting into my career as a social worker, I very much wanted to be the savior. I wanted to save people. I wanted to help people,
Molly Bierman (04:36)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Jill Griffin (04:38)
which is ironic because for a very large chunk of that period of time, I was the one who needed saving actually. But that's neither here nor there. So I guess
It took me a long time, especially as a helper, because I feel like if you are a professional helper,
Molly Bierman (04:56)
Mm.
Jill Griffin (04:57)
you really need to tune in and listen to what we're going to share, because you have to be really clear on your personal and professional boundaries and your energetic boundaries if you are going to serve people. Because if you're just going to let people take from you and be needed all the time, you will have nothing left to give.
Molly Bierman (05:17)
We have both been there.
Jill Griffin (05:19)
Yes.
Molly Bierman (05:20)
Mm-hmm. I think this kind of so let's like roll the tape back. Okay. So the first question, do you immediately try to fix other people's problems?
I would say that historically, when I first started in the recovery space, there was this when you start to feel better, and I don't know if this is your experience, but when you start to feel better and you start to feel like I have a solution, I'm not thinking about or obsessing about drugs and alcohol every single day, all day, there is this desire to go save the world.
And I don't know if that had been your experience, but and we're also taught when we first start to get well that you can help somebody who has one day sober or four days sober or a week sober if you have a month sober, right? Like you're a couple steps ahead, so reach your hand out and try to help the next person.
And really what it taught me is that I had this desire to want to try to save people from their desperation. And when you're working in the behavioral health space andor, right, not working in the behavioral health space and just in your day-to-day life as a parent, as an employer, as a friend, there is this fine line with allowing someone else.
To have their own consequences and to feel their own desperation to then determine their next level of like grit and resilience. But in the beginning, I paid a lot of price tags for that. I was trying to be the one who was saving rather than guiding, helping, or showing, right? So I don't know what.
your initial kind of experience was that in the recovery space, but my guess is that it evolved over time. did you feel like you ever struggled to let someone be uncomfortable? Especially like in the early stages of like learning how to be comfortable yourself?
Jill Griffin (07:11)
So I definitely had this similar experience once I got sober and wanted to shout from the rooftops like, hey, you can do this too. Because if I can come from that and feel better now, so can you. But how I saw this play out for me is in the professional setting. I early on in my career worked with individuals at risk of homelessness that were coming out on parole. So these were all.
generally inner city men.
coming out on parole really don't have anything, don't have jobs,
Molly Bierman (07:44)
Mm-hmm.
Jill Griffin (07:45)
probably sleeping on somebody's couch or a family's room. There's not a lot there and there was a lot of substance use issues. I related to that a lot coming from where I was pre-sober at this point, a new social worker in the field.
can remember going above and beyond in ways that
Molly Bierman (08:07)
Right.
Jill Griffin (08:07)
would make me cringe now if my supervisees
Molly Bierman (08:09)
Correct.
Jill Griffin (08:11)
told me what they were doing. Now, mind you, I wasn't their therapist. I was a case manager. So some of my role did involve
Molly Bierman (08:17)
Yeah, it's different.
Jill Griffin (08:18)
driving them places, getting them connected with jobs. I definitely went above and beyond. And I think it played into not necessarily I could see that they were uncomfortable. That wasn't really up to me.
if they were struggling or not, it was more like, I'm going to connect you to this solution. And I would feel like it was a reflection on my ability to help them if they didn't connect to that solution. And so I really, you know, as I supervise new social workers and staff now, it's like, we have to separate the outcome from our effort in this field.
I worked in crisis for so many years and even with that population, I didn't always get to see the end result. Some of those guys might be entrepreneurs now running their own businesses, successful, own their own house. I don't know. That was 12 years ago now. They might be in a completely different place now. The point is that sometimes in this field, we only get to plant the seeds. We don't get to see the garden. We don't get to see what comes
Molly Bierman (09:21)
Yeah.
Jill Griffin (09:22)
from it.
Molly Bierman (09:22)
Right.
Jill Griffin (09:22)
And sometimes somebody remembers a seed that you planted, even if you think that you're not helping because they relapsed or because they couldn't get whatever, a job or whatever the outcome was.
Molly Bierman (09:34)
There's a couple things that came to mind when you were sharing. One is a really good way to determine how much we were trying to spread the message, at least in my history and the way that we were going about it. Really where I get humbled pretty regularly is Facebook memories. Okay?
Some of the posts, some of the
Jill Griffin (09:57)
Yeah.
Molly Bierman (09:58)
Some of the ways in which I was quote unquote sharing with others and broadcasting was problematic. Okay? I'll just say that. And maybe we can find a few of those in the archives. But the second thing that I thought about when you were just sharing is that there was this
I think when people are so broken, at least my experience, when I was so broken and I was so desperate, there weren't a lot of people in my life that wanted to have a relationship with me. So it made it really comfortable to go try to help people that were a little bit more desperate than I, right? And I remember pretty early on, I was bringing a
like support group essentially into a men's prison. Okay. In a way that was like more of like a service position, but also a lot of these guys would end up paroling out into the recovery houses that I was running at the time. And I remember this one client in particular, and I don't know ever what happened to him, but
He was somebody who I was like, God, we have to help him. Like this would be the comeback story, you know? And there was this desire where I was overcompensating because I wanted it more than he wanted it for himself. And this is constantly where I get myself in trouble.
Right, the need that I am providing someone else or providing that what I think they need is not necessarily where their priorities are. So it's constantly this like me inserting my
Jill Griffin (11:33)
Mm-hmm.
Molly Bierman (11:34)
solution or my
Roadmap or my opinion, you know, or whatever it is. And so what does it look like when we start to check in with ourselves and say, and I use this line a lot with families, right? And I'm not perfect. And some of the things I share with my families, I'm like, God, I really need to use that today. You know, some of the ways in which do we say yes or do we start to help before actually checking in with ourselves?
Right. And so a lot of times I'm always asking myself, is this to serve me or is this to serve the other person? And that's really hard, especially as a parent, right? So I've been seeing this come up a lot in our in our in in my business, right? When we are looking at families who are really trying to soothe soothe themselves.
Which may not actually be helpful for their loved one who's going through some sort of challenge. So
Interested to like get more curious about that part of what kind of comes up for me because I think we tend to as a society over-identify with the idea of being needed, both as parents and especially women, right? As moms, as a friend, as a daughter. You know, there's this hamster wheel that we're able to kind of catch ourselves on. But what I've really been trying to like ask families that I work with,
Myself at times, my husband. Is this for me or is this for the other person? Sometimes maybe it's for both, but like, what is it doing for me?
Jill Griffin (13:13)
It's giving eldest daughter vibes.
Molly Bierman (13:14)
Mm. I mean I am the eldest daughter.
Jill Griffin (13:16)
I mean, I think that...
Molly Bierman (13:19)
Eldest
daughter, wait, I have a question about this because I hear this a lot and I don't really know like the actual kind of like context here. Is it you have to be the oldest and a f and a daughter, or is it can you be the firstborn daughter
Jill Griffin (13:32)
You don't have to be.
Molly Bierman (13:33)
and there be a male ahead of you? Okay.
Jill Griffin (13:35)
I think so. The
whole point of it is that, and this goes into where does this need come from. We covered how we were taught in early recovery to help others and also just we learn to get out of ourselves by helping others and this fixing comes. But a lot of people have this thing that comes from early childhood or their childhood families growing up.
daughters are more likely to take on the emotional responsibilities of the family system. And what I mean by that is they are very hyper aware of what needs to be done to keep everyone happy or not upset. And so for what this really points out for me,
Molly Bierman (14:25)
I don't think I
did a good job at that.
Jill Griffin (14:28)
but you might have tried and failed and then used drugs. For a lot of people, think about adult children of alcoholics and I know most recently with ACOA, they have renamed to adult children of dysfunctional families.
Molly Bierman (14:48)
Interesting, okay.
Jill Griffin (14:51)
The whole concept is if you grow up in a household where there is a lot of emotional turmoil,
Maybe there's someone who yells at the drop of the hat or don't know, they leave. You don't know where they are for days at a time. There's inconsistencies, emotional and or abandonment and or substance use, alcoholism, substance use. When you're a child and you see all of these different ways people are acting and there's no predictability. If you don't know, if I go to my mom for a hug, I'm gonna get a hug back versus
I go to my mom for a hug and she screams at me to get away from her or she's not there or and you don't know which one you're going to get. That's very confusing for a child. So what happens is like from a very young age, you start to learn, well, if I behave in this way, then mommy doesn't get upset. And so I'm going to behave in this way. So in some way it's a people pleasing thing, but then there's also these tasks that sometimes you take on to be needed all the time, whether it's an emotional needing.
or task-oriented needing That's just an example, but I see that a lot in my professional work that the role that you take on into adulthood and especially parenting your children, there's a lot that comes from how you grow up and what you're taught about your own emotions. I talk about that now a lot with my children, like naming emotions, talking about emotions. Children don't have the vocabulary for their emotional.
States.
Molly Bierman (16:19)
Well, I also think just simply apologizing. It's something that I feel my children have taught me. It used to be that feeling like I had to apologize was associated with like this weakness, failure, loop. And now I myself
no longer think aboutthe vinegar taste coming out like when I go to say I apologize. Cause I think that was really something that I felt like I was always being put on the hot seat for. And I didn't really know why I was apologizing, right? Like there was this disconnect.
Jill Griffin (16:51)
Well, that, what you're talking about is more like shame, it's like more shame based
Molly Bierman (16:55)
Mm-hmm.
Jill Griffin (16:56)
too.
Molly Bierman (16:56)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jill Griffin (16:57)
mean, you feel like you said you did a bad job at it, but do you feel like you were a caretaker or a fixer or a peacekeeper or an achiever when you were younger? Like, what was your role in the family?
Molly Bierman (17:10)
I think really probably to keep everybody together. So my earliest memories, and my family and I laugh about this now, like my earliest memory was probably like five or six years old. And me like picking up the landline and calling my grandfather or my grandmother, and saying, I'm making like a dinner reservation.
And like everybody's gonna go out to dinner, right? Or you would find me like recruiting the whole neighborhood to do a talent show. Like I was always somebody who wanted to kind of keep people included. And there was also this drive to never want to be alone either, right? So I've always enjoyed like group connectivity. There was this desire to kind of keep people together.
Jill Griffin (17:50)
Yeah, I was definitely the achiever.
I feel like part of that was because I liked the attention of the positive feedback of doing something, but I also, I feel like it did also morph into like my shield because I started using drugs and alcohol so early that like as long as I got A's in school and I was achieving in sports or whatever the thing was, then they wouldn't notice my misbehavior in like these areas or they would be more likely to.
not discipline me for them, I guess.
Molly Bierman (18:23)
Well, I think it also goes to show like when we t we when we talk about these beliefs, it's like for me it was I have to hold it all together. That really was a thread, right? So when you start to kind of
be the person that's the cheerleader and brings everybody together. And then it migrates into like a substance use disorder. And you're trying to get well, there's this idea of like, I just gotta hold it together. I just gotta figure this out. Right. There was never this v you know, kind of drop in the shield of like, I don't have it all together. Because there was always this association to kind of the broader
I don't know. Not the broader kind of I guess peacemaker. I I don't know if I really identify with that term because I don't know if I was feeling like I was trying to keep the peace or if I was just trying to keep people connected. I don't know if that kind of
Jill Griffin (19:06)
Yeah.
Molly Bierman (19:07)
resembles both, but
Jill Griffin (19:08)
I I think really, though, this goes down to, as a mother now, the whole being needed thing. I really, over the last, I would say, three years have really
Molly Bierman (19:20)
Mm-hmm.
Jill Griffin (19:21)
come into my own where, if it's not a hell yes, it's a no. And that goes
Molly Bierman (19:25)
Mm-hmm.
Jill Griffin (19:25)
for my family, my husband, my kids,
Molly Bierman (19:27)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jill Griffin (19:29)
my work, everything. That's just the bar. So.
I'm checking in with myself and how I feel when I'm asked to do something and
Molly Bierman (19:37)
Mm-hmm.
Jill Griffin (19:38)
what my capacity is.
Molly Bierman (19:40)
Mm-hmm.
Jill Griffin (19:40)
But also, I have children now that are fairly independent because I let them struggle with things and I let them be disappointed in me. I let them
Molly Bierman (19:51)
Mm-hmm.
Jill Griffin (19:51)
not like what I'm asking them to do. This morning is a great example. I was running behind and I was like, I need you guys to pack your lunches for camp.
I got the groans, I got the I don't want tos. That's great. I mean, I don't want to either. So we're all in the same boat here. I'm asking you to do it though. So I think as a mother, especially, I see a lot of other parents and I have conversations with parents around, your kids are younger. So this doesn't necessarily apply. There are age appropriate ways to create independence at that age. But if your kids are capable,
of doing things. You need to allow them to struggle to do them. And you need to have the patience for the extra time that's going to take for them to maybe do that task.
Molly Bierman (20:33)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jill Griffin (20:34)
And or therefore, you need to be able to tolerate their frustration. Because
Molly Bierman (20:39)
Mm-hmm.
Jill Griffin (20:40)
if you constantly step in and do things, what's going to happen
Molly Bierman (20:42)
Mm-hmm.
Jill Griffin (20:44)
is you're going to have an adult who is unable to function in this world. And Molly and I both see these adults in professional
Molly Bierman (20:48)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jill Griffin (20:51)
practice constantly.
And I refuse. I actually texted my husband this week and I said, my biggest, I think I said something like, my biggest job in this world right now is to raise an independent adult. Like, I
Molly Bierman (21:06)
Yeah.
Jill Griffin (21:06)
refuse to have a 20-something kid living in my house that can't do anything for themselves.
Molly Bierman (21:13)
Well, I think that kind of goes to show like exactly what this topic discusses, which is over identifying with being the fixer, right? With being the person that controls and fixes. So that really becomes more and we see this a lot, it really becomes what is yours versus what is your child's? What is your level of discomfort that you can't tolerate because of your own stuff? And what is it that your kid actually can't tolerate? Because what we have found is that our our children and the people
That we raise, whether bio children, adopted children, Like people do have this innate resilience, right? The only way that gets kind of pushed down and blurred is through someone else's inability to tolerate the challenge or watch the person.
tolerate the challenge. and I think there's kind of two sides to this though, too. So when you become the person that has always been the strong one, right? For instance, and I would say that probably 90% of the people in my life, if not more, would probably quantify me in that bucket, that I tend to be the one that is really can be relied on, consistent.
But what I'll say is that I become
as well as others who are in my life confused when maybe I'm not showing up in that role. And so it's really been now this like really intentional kind of unraveling of that where I want, to still be viewed in that light, but I want to also like not have to do that all the time. Right. Like where do you find this middle ground? And
When, you know, in conjunction with that, is like the strong person isn't always the only version of me, right? So, you know, do people begin to know the real you? Do they know the other versions of you? Right. And so that has been a lot of like my own work. And I think as women in positions of power or as moms or in leadership positions, or just simply
you know, growing into your own authentic kind of next version of yourself. Sometimes
Jill Griffin (23:22)
Mm-hmm.
Molly Bierman (23:22)
it's hard to show that because you feel like it won't get you to where you want to be. Like the face-down moment is really what was the catalyst for all the other steps. But sometimes that can feel counterintuitive.
Jill Griffin (23:36)
Let's do a little rapid fire. If no one needed you tomorrow, what would you do with your day?
Molly Bierman (23:41)
Go to the beach.
Jill Griffin (23:42)
I'm actually, I told nobody to need me tomorrow. So I'm actually having one of those days and I'm going to do something by myself to fill my spiritual bucket. And then I'm going to meet with a friend for a walk and I'm going for a pedicure.
Molly Bierman (23:57)
There you go. Perfect.
Jill Griffin (23:58)
What parts of yourself have you abandoned?
Molly Bierman (24:00)
I would say that the more spontaneous parts and I feel those are peaking their way, you know, here and there.
Jill Griffin (24:09)
Yeah, I think
the vulnerability piece, it's just like, I can really tend to just being in that role of like the strong one holding it together. And I know that when I'm not being honest and vulnerable around like, I'm overwhelmed. Hey, I have X, Y, Z. Those parts of me can come across too strong for some environments, particularly
Molly Bierman (24:35)
Well
Jill Griffin (24:35)
like my husband.
Molly Bierman (24:36)
So, if your job disappeared tomorrow,
Jill Griffin (24:38)
Thank
Molly Bierman (24:39)
who would you still be?
Jill Griffin (24:40)
Yikes.
You know, I would have a lot of free time on my hands. know that. I would be a mother. I would be a friend. I would be a wife. I would be a daughter. I think that I do really lean into the other parts of my life in terms of nurturing those relationships. I think that I, and I have these conversations with my husband. I think I do a good job at balancing that because at the end of the day, if work disappeared and I think,
The stats show this when people retire, like people's lives fall apart when they don't have work because they spend so much time at work and they neglect other parts of them.
Molly Bierman (25:18)
What do you feel like you want more of?
Jill Griffin (25:20)
This isn't going sound like probably cliche, I don't know. I feel very balanced right now. I had a conversation yesterday that I feel very good. I don't know that I need more of anything right now.
Molly Bierman (25:32)
That's like the gold standard.
Jill Griffin (25:33)
Yeah, like I'm very content right now.
Molly Bierman (25:36)
Love that.
Jill Griffin (25:36)
do you need that you've been ignoring?
Molly Bierman (25:40)
an assistant?
Jill Griffin (25:43)
same.
Molly Bierman (25:44)
An assistant for work. Yeah.
Jill Griffin (25:46)
Okay. Well, guys, the newsletter link is in the show notes along with our links to anywhere that you can find us YouTube, Spotify, Apple, please make sure you're following along comment, let us know what you want to hear more of so we can keep giving you what you want.
Molly Bierman (26:05)
Thank you guys. Until next time.
Jill Griffin (26:08)
Peace.
Molly Bierman (26:08)
See ya.
